Asking Philosophically: Why do people hate SEPTA so much? (Philadelphia: apartment, buy)

[moneymkt]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

You could also make the case that SEPTA's trolleys stations from 37th to 13th street functions more like heavy rail. It's one of the reasons why I think Philly has the 2nd best downtown transportation in the country.

Wish it was a express trolley that went from 40th and Baltimore to 30th and then 15th.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

I like the trolleys, but they definitely don't function as efficiently as the Green Line in Boston. Ultimately, I think Boston's Transit it's a little more refined. But they also get a lot more funding.

Philly's and Boston's Green Lines are exact matches except:

Three of Boston's four branches operate entirely in reserved medians, and one of those three follows an old railroad route that has no grade crossings. That branch operates exactly like rapid transit - it's more analogous to the Norristown High-Speed Line here than to the 101 and 102 trolleys.

Conversely, those two suburban trolley routes are the only light rail lines in Philadelphia* that operate predominantly in private rights-of-way. The four in the city operate mostly in the street, in mixed traffic, the outer end of Route 36 being the sole exception to this rule. That will of necessity degrade their performance relative to Boston's surface light rail routes.

*In terms of vehicle type and capacity, the NHSL is technically "light rail."

[MB1562]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Philly's and Boston's Green Lines are exact matches except:

Three of Boston's four branches operate entirely in reserved medians, and one of those three follows an old railroad route that has no grade crossings. That branch operates exactly like rapid transit - it's more analogous to the Norristown High-Speed Line here than to the 101 and 102 trolleys.

Conversely, those two suburban trolley routes are the only light rail lines in Philadelphia* that operate predominantly in private rights-of-way. The four in the city operate mostly in the street, in mixed traffic, the outer end of Route 36 being the sole exception to this rule. That will of necessity degrade their performance relative to Boston's surface light rail routes.

*In terms of vehicle type and capacity, the NHSL is technically "light rail."

Another thing that degrades the trolley performance (and buses for that matter) is stopping at every single block. There is absolutely no reason for that and it slows service down immensely. When I used to ride the 10 every day to work, going up Lancaster Ave was horribly slow. It should be every 2 at the very least, or every 3.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Philly's and Boston's Green Lines are exact matches except:

Three of Boston's four branches operate entirely in reserved medians, and one of those three follows an old railroad route that has no grade crossings. That branch operates exactly like rapid transit - it's more analogous to the Norristown High-Speed Line here than to the 101 and 102 trolleys.

Conversely, those two suburban trolley routes are the only light rail lines in Philadelphia* that operate predominantly in private rights-of-way. The four in the city operate mostly in the street, in mixed traffic, the outer end of Route 36 being the sole exception to this rule. That will of necessity degrade their performance relative to Boston's surface light rail routes.

*In terms of vehicle type and capacity, the NHSL is technically "light rail."

Exactly. It performs more like rapid transit, while our trolleys function more like buses outside of CC (101 & 102 not included).

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by moneymkt

Wish it was a express trolley that went from 40th and Baltimore to 30th and then 15th.

The "express" from 30th to 15th is the El.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by MB1562

Another thing that degrades the trolley performance (and buses for that matter) is stopping at every single block. There is absolutely no reason for that and it slows service down immensely. When I used to ride the 10 every day to work, going up Lancaster Ave was horribly slow. It should be every 2 at the very least, or every 3.

There is a reason for it but you since you don't have any physical disabilities( right?)and you're not old perhaps you can't see the point.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Exactly. It performs more like rapid transit, while our trolleys function more like buses outside of CC (101 & 102 not included).

I actually remember when we had "street car" trolleys that, yes, behaved like today's buses.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

SEPTA used nothing but EMUs on Regional Rail until the late 1980s, when it acquired its just-retired AEM-7 and ALP-44 "Swedish Meatball" locomotives and unpowered Bombardier passenger coaches. The bulk of the Regional Rail fleet remains EMU today, though SEPTA just ordered a bunch of new Siemens electric locos to pull both those unpowered coaches and a new fleet of unpowered bi-level passenger cars it's getting from a Chinese firm.

I don't know why they didn't opt for bilevel EMUs, though I can think of only one city where I've seen such creatures: Chicago.

SEPTA could have implemented a POP system for Regional Rail along with the SEPTA Key technology, but chose not to. I think they were fixated on not having to use paper at all. SEPTA Key is all but fully implemented - and the agency chose to keep its existing fare structure, including its lack of transferability between Regional Rail and transit unless you hold the right kind of pass, as it was. The funny thing is, to avoid issuing paper, the agency chose to turn the central Regional Rail stations into rapid transit stations anyway.

Good points. I totally don't get the loco/push-pulls SEPTA seems in love with and is still is opting for -- as you know, a new batch of new locos just arrived this past year and, yes, un-powered bi-level cars are in the offing... Why? SEPTA, with its large majority of closely-spaced stations either within Philly or just beyond its border, is the absolute wrong system for this. It is built for German S-Bahn service (safe the poor signaling and mainly low platforms; both of which could, and should, be remedied).

I also note that, not only the S-Bahn systems use POP, their cars are much lighter weight than SEPTAs; even the newer ones. Perhaps this is an American railroad crash-worthiness requirement as these trains intermingle with heavy-weight freight cars ... on occasion.

NOTE: Tiny (by comparison) Denver just opened the first legs of its mini-SEPTA type electrified commuter train network, though it lacks Philly's through CBD routing given the other half of Denver's FasTracks netowrk is LRT for some reason. But even Denver had the foresight to utilize raised/train level platforms throughout as well as the exact same Hundyia-Rotem EMUs SEPTA entered online 8 years ago.

[selhars]

Well, a friend just told me about a frustrating experience:
She wanted to buy a Septa Key (fare card) for a family member.
-- She couldn't by a monthly pass in the middle of the month.
-- She had to go to certain transportation centers to buy one. (which wasn't convenient)
-- She had to buy a weekly pass, that's NOT renewable. (She wasn't told this at purchase. Only was told when she went to put more money on it to buy another week.)
-- She couldn't buy a monthly pass until the first day of the month.
-- When the nephew bought the pass, it wasn't good starting that day. He had to wait until the next day to use it. So he still had to have money for his trips that day.

Her thoughts: "WTF?"
-- Why can't a monthly pass be bought at any time? It can't be prorated in some way?
-- Why can't weekly passes be renewed? IF a person wants to just renew weekly passes, why can't they?
-- Why can't passes be valid for use immediately after purchase?

We can put men on the moon and probes on Mars, and purchasing SEPTA passes puts people through this kind of BS?
In her experience, buying the passes was just too aggravating and inconvenient. So needless to say she's feeling no love for SEPTA when it comes to that issue.

She, herself is NOT a regular SEPTA rider. She might take the commuter train once or twice a year.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by TheProf

I also note that, not only the S-Bahn systems use POP, their cars are much lighter weight than SEPTAs; even the newer ones. Perhaps this is an American railroad crash-worthiness requirement as these trains intermingle with heavy-weight freight cars ... on occasion.

The weight of American passenger rail coaches does stem from Federal Railroad Administration requirements, which stress crash survivability over absorbing the energy of a crash as the chief way to protect passengers. In other words, passenger rail coaches should be built like tanks, like freight cars are.

The FRA just changed this rule to allow lighter-weight passenger railcars to operate on U.S. railroads. Let's see how quickly our passenger rail authorities and companies pick up on the change.