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Old 06-08-2020, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
950 posts, read 374,346 times
Reputation: 1214

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
So like a "Warning Label" for Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and the others that helped build this country that is now totally free?

White's ran and built things. That was the reality of the time. Why should we apologize for history and attempt toe ERASE it? We weren't there.
Hm, wouldn't an addendum that gives a rich and historically accurate depiction of the Founding Fathers, with all of their accomplishments and flaws, in fact illuminate history? Why take the easy route and completely romanticize people who were flawed? Why not give the truth of the matter, that in 1776, white, male property owners were freed, but many remained relegated to the margins?
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
26,226 posts, read 11,639,656 times
Reputation: 19272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
Hm, wouldn't an addendum that gives a rich and historically accurate depiction of the Founding Fathers, with all of their accomplishments and flaws, in fact illuminate history? Why take the easy route and completely romanticize people who were flawed? Why not give the truth of the matter, that in 1776, white, male property owners were freed, but many remained relegated to the margins?
I have no problem inserting that into the normal verbiage but I'd have a big problem making it the centerpiece of the display which is probably what would happen today. Is purposeful self hate and flagellation now the norm? Even though we have evolved past slavery and mostly evolved past racism?
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
950 posts, read 374,346 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
I have no problem inserting that into the normal verbiage but I'd have a big problem making it the centerpiece of the display which is probably what would happen today. Is purposeful self hate and flagellation now the norm? Even though we have evolved past slavery and mostly evolved past racism?
I don’t see how it’s self-hate, unless you are in fact a self-identified racist. It would be both an ongoing warning, and a memorial for those who lived through both the explicit and structural violence of our nation’s history. It would be like the Holocaust memorials in Germany. Nobody would consider those self-hate, unless they are in fact a self-identified neo-Nazi.
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
26,226 posts, read 11,639,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
I don’t see how it’s self-hate, unless you are in fact a self-identified racist. It would be both an ongoing warning, and a memorial for those who lived through both the explicit and structural violence of our nation’s history. It would be like the Holocaust memorials in Germany. Nobody would consider those self-hate, unless they are in fact a self-identified neo-Nazi.
So you are equating the Founding Fathers to the Nazis???
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
950 posts, read 374,346 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
So you are equating the Founding Fathers to the Nazis???
Nope, if that’s what you got out of that, you may want to practice some reading comprehension strategies.
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:46 AM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
So like a "Warning Label" for Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and the others that helped build this country that is now totally free?

White's ran and built things. That was the reality of the time. Why should we apologize for history and attempt toe ERASE it? We weren't there.
Neither were the white anarchists and other assorted white social justice warriors and gentrifiers when Rizzo lived.

Saw their smug pic taking at the blank Rizzo mural wall yesterday. Their virtue signaling is the height of narcissism and their patronizing racism is even more disgusting.
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Old 06-08-2020, 01:31 PM
 
8,107 posts, read 18,631,690 times
Reputation: 2875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
So like a "Warning Label" for Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and the others that helped build this country that is now totally free?
That's debatable how free this country is for a variety of folks....but that's a more OT discussion. Somewhat more on topic, it's seems obvious that there were a lot of Philadelphians (of color) who didn't feel free while Rizzo was Police Commissioner and Mayor.

Quote:
White's ran and built things. That was the reality of the time. Why should we apologize for history and attempt toe ERASE it? We weren't there.
Well this land's indigenous people were "ran" off of where they lived. You're also leaving out the intentionally uncompensated and traumatized labor that contributed to it. Philadelphians would have otherwise had to pay a lot more to manufacture and purchase cotton-based clothing, tobacco products and other goods during the country's first century.

It's true that Rizzo's mural was erased. His statue, on the other hand, will probably end up in a private business where those who would like to admire it can do so.
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Old 06-08-2020, 02:24 PM
 
259 posts, read 149,300 times
Reputation: 370
I always laugh when people clutch their pearls and complain about "erasing" history. As if someone's entire historical legacy is tied up in one statue or one mural or one monument.

The thing is, we can acknowledge the flaws and foibles of our historical figures WITHOUT celebrating them as perfect godlike beings. We can acknowledge that Christopher Columbus existed, for example, but we don't need monuments and a national holiday to celebrate the vicious, murdering bastard who opened the door to the Atlantic slave trade.

Taking down a statue doesn't mean that person is gone from history. It only means that we as a society have progressed to the point where we understand that some people's legacies are more negative than positive, and deifying them isn't a good idea. Is that the case with Rizzo? Depends on who you ask. I myself am mostly ambivalent and don't particularly care either way. But statue or no, the man's name is never going to disappear from Philadelphia history.
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Old 06-08-2020, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
950 posts, read 374,346 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
I always laugh when people clutch their pearls and complain about "erasing" history. As if someone's entire historical legacy is tied up in one statue or one mural or one monument.

The thing is, we can acknowledge the flaws and foibles of our historical figures WITHOUT celebrating them as perfect godlike beings. We can acknowledge that Christopher Columbus existed, for example, but we don't need monuments and a national holiday to celebrate the vicious, murdering bastard who opened the door to the Atlantic slave trade.

Taking down a statue doesn't mean that person is gone from history. It only means that we as a society have progressed to the point where we understand that some people's legacies are more negative than positive, and deifying them isn't a good idea. Is that the case with Rizzo? Depends on who you ask. I myself am mostly ambivalent and don't particularly care either way. But statue or no, the man's name is never going to disappear from Philadelphia history.
Totally agree. It almost always comes across as disingenuous. Who really believes statues and monuments are a critical means of historical record keeping?
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Old 06-08-2020, 03:28 PM
 
95 posts, read 10,530 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
More likely Mummia or John and Romona Africa.
What's wrong with a neat, clean wall?

Murals tend to give off a negative impression about a neighborhood.
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