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Old 06-08-2020, 04:42 PM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
I always laugh when people clutch their pearls and complain about "erasing" history. As if someone's entire historical legacy is tied up in one statue or one mural or one monument.

The thing is, we can acknowledge the flaws and foibles of our historical figures WITHOUT celebrating them as perfect godlike beings. We can acknowledge that Christopher Columbus existed, for example, but we don't need monuments and a national holiday to celebrate the vicious, murdering bastard who opened the door to the Atlantic slave trade.

Taking down a statue doesn't mean that person is gone from history. It only means that we as a society have progressed to the point where we understand that some people's legacies are more negative than positive, and deifying them isn't a good idea. Is that the case with Rizzo? Depends on who you ask. I myself am mostly ambivalent and don't particularly care either way. But statue or no, the man's name is never going to disappear from Philadelphia history.
It's not pearl clutching so much as a bunch of woke white kids needing to virtue signal. The mural is on private property, can't stay because owner structure at risk if it stays.

Interesting that you pose a question whether or not it's a good idea to deify him, then answer with depends on who you ask. There was no consensus on this issue, which you confirm.

The manner of the erasure should be of concern though. A white mob of white privileged kids did this for the black community it patronizes with their own brand of racism. It should have been an angry mob of black philly people on May 30; nope, white privileged gentrifiers acting out the outrage for black people at the same time they're pricing black folks out of 'hoods. lol

I object to the method of the removals and remain ambivilent about the whole issue otherwise.

There was no asking.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:15 AM
 
259 posts, read 149,300 times
Reputation: 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
It's not pearl clutching so much as a bunch of woke white kids needing to virtue signal. The mural is on private property, can't stay because owner structure at risk if it stays.

Interesting that you pose a question whether or not it's a good idea to deify him, then answer with depends on who you ask. There was no consensus on this issue, which you confirm.

The manner of the erasure should be of concern though. A white mob of white privileged kids did this for the black community it patronizes with their own brand of racism. It should have been an angry mob of black philly people on May 30; nope, white privileged gentrifiers acting out the outrage for black people at the same time they're pricing black folks out of 'hoods. lol

I object to the method of the removals and remain ambivilent about the whole issue otherwise.

There was no asking.
My own ambivalence is based in the fact that Rizzo died when I was 9, so my life was in no way impacted by him. But the man's legacy is complicated, and his stance on racial issues is, to put it mildly, problematic. I can see why some segments of the population liked him--he was brash, outspoken, unapologetic, larger than life. Is that alone worthy of a statue? I would say no, but I do understand why some people wanted it.

The thing is, there's never going to be a true consensus on things like these. You're never going to get 100% of people to agree on anything. To use my earlier example, there is still a non-trivial amount of people who defend Columbus and decry the ending of his holiday and tearing down of his monuments. But if enough people want something gone, then we need to listen. The fact that even before the protests Kenney had announced plans to move the statue suggests he recognized the changing tide, even if it's incredibly hypocritical of him because he's the one who spearheaded its construction initially.

You mention "asking," but there really is no formal process for things like this. Municipalities all over the country are handling this stuff in different ways, and we can't always take every decision like this to the ballot box. Maybe there should a more standard process for, and maybe there will be the more we re-evaluate our monuments. But in the meantime, anyone who disagrees is free to make their voice heard to their elected officials, just as the people on the opposite sides are.
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:33 AM
 
1,578 posts, read 1,447,662 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNgFooCj View Post
Frank Rizzo mural now too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Calendar View Post
What's wrong with a neat, clean wall?

Murals tend to give off a negative impression about a neighborhood.
Exactly both of you, and we need to Change this!!



https://www.change.org/p/replace-the...95-en-us%3Av12
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:47 AM
 
259 posts, read 149,300 times
Reputation: 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessimprov View Post
Exactly both of you, and we need to Change this!!



https://www.change.org/p/replace-the...95-en-us%3Av12
I'll totally go to bat for a Gritty mural.
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:20 AM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
My own ambivalence is based in the fact that Rizzo died when I was 9, so my life was in no way impacted by him. But the man's legacy is complicated, and his stance on racial issues is, to put it mildly, problematic. I can see why some segments of the population liked him--he was brash, outspoken, unapologetic, larger than life. Is that alone worthy of a statue? I would say no, but I do understand why some people wanted it.

The thing is, there's never going to be a true consensus on things like these. You're never going to get 100% of people to agree on anything. To use my earlier example, there is still a non-trivial amount of people who defend Columbus and decry the ending of his holiday and tearing down of his monuments. But if enough people want something gone, then we need to listen. The fact that even before the protests Kenney had announced plans to move the statue suggests he recognized the changing tide, even if it's incredibly hypocritical of him because he's the one who spearheaded its construction initially.

You mention "asking," but there really is no formal process for things like this. Municipalities all over the country are handling this stuff in different ways, and we can't always take every decision like this to the ballot box. Maybe there should a more standard process for, and maybe there will be the more we re-evaluate our monuments. But in the meantime, anyone who disagrees is free to make their voice heard to their elected officials, just as the people on the opposite sides are.
Ask two-fisted Jimmy Kenney why he encouraged and promoted the Rizzo statue in the early '90s. If Rizzo is a huge racist now, why wasn't he then?

You mention a standard process etc. What is enough people wanting it gone or to stay? Narcissistic white activists wanting to prove they're not racists for their egocentric social media platforms.

The problem is Kenney succumbed to a mob.

Waiting for Madame Defarge to make her debut soon.
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:27 AM
 
266 posts, read 138,664 times
Reputation: 356
One of the best things about all this is how angry it makes people like LNQ20
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:34 AM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,707,627 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslhu View Post
One of the best things about all this is how angry it makes people like LNQ20
Maybe I'm wrong, but LNQ20 doesn't seem racist and isn't wrong about a number of points. I find it more interesting that others fail to address his/her points, especially the ones that make sense.

For example, why isn't Kenney catching flack for being the one that raised the statue? Do people just not want to talk about those things?
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:40 AM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslhu View Post
One of the best things about all this is how angry it makes people like LNQ20
Not angry at all, it's the method this statue thing went out. Don't care either way.

Sorry to disappoint you though.

I'm actually enjoying this show and hope it continues apace.

White millennials move into Philly to create their own utopia using the black community for their virtue signaling while gentrifying and displacing the same black community they think needs their ''help''.

I hope Kenney defunds the police and transfer $$ to these con artist community groups. Just what Philly needs. lol

See, I'm smiling!

Last edited by toobusytoday; 06-09-2020 at 01:36 PM.. Reason: removed comment with faux curse word
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:44 AM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Maybe I'm wrong, but LNQ20 doesn't seem racist and isn't wrong about a number of points. I find it more interesting that others fail to address his/her points, especially the ones that make sense.

For example, why isn't Kenney catching flack for being the one that raised the statue? Do people just not want to talk about those things?
It all depends on how much Kenney gives in to. If Kenney fails to deliver on a particular point, the mob could easily want his head, and will, like we've seen recently and historically, scoure his past to confirm his sins. Off to the guillotine. Hope this happens to Kenney and Krasner.

Krasner was out last week watching his Red Guards at work around City Hall. He as well could easily be taken out by the mob...let's hope so anyway.

City council members are balking at increasing police budget by $14 million for 2021. Of course that money is supposed to go to community groups.

lol...this is getting good.

Last edited by LNQ20; 06-09-2020 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:01 AM
 
108 posts, read 16,399 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslhu View Post
One of the best things about all this is how angry it makes people like LNQ20
Havertown, PA, 2% black population lol
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