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Old 06-09-2020, 01:06 PM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
Ask two-fisted Jimmy Kenney why he encouraged and promoted the Rizzo statue in the early '90s. If Rizzo is a huge racist now, why wasn't he then?

You mention a standard process etc. What is enough people wanting it gone or to stay?
Rizzo's been dead for 30 years, so he's as much a racist now as he ever was. The difference is, we as a society are now having conversations about race that we weren't ready for back then, and part of that includes re-examining people and actions we either ignored or took for granted. That's what all societies do. They evolve, and change, and improve over time. Every generation has ended up different than the one that came before it, usually for the better.

Now, I'm not Jim Kenney (thankfully) so I can't speak to what has gone through his head over the years. Maybe he's genuinely had a change of heart regarding Rizzo. Maybe either the original installation or the subsequent removal (or both) were calculated political ploys to curry favor with certain voters. I have no idea. But as you and other posters have said, he absolutely should have to explain himself.

I don't know if there's ever going to be an ideal number or percentage of people for handling something like this. I would imagine serious conversations would start at least at the point where negative perception outweighs positive, but that doesn't mean we also can't at least listen when vocal minorities speak up. A lot of societal progress has happened when relatively fewer numbers of people have fought for what they thought was right.
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Old 06-09-2020, 01:18 PM
 
106 posts, read 22,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
Rizzo's been dead for 30 years, so he's as much a racist now as he ever was. The difference is, we as a society are now having conversations about race that we weren't ready for back then, and part of that includes re-examining people and actions we either ignored or took for granted. That's what all societies do. They evolve, and change, and improve over time. Every generation has ended up different than the one that came before it, usually for the better.

Now, I'm not Jim Kenney (thankfully) so I can't speak to what has gone through his head over the years. Maybe he's genuinely had a change of heart regarding Rizzo. Maybe either the original installation or the subsequent removal (or both) were calculated political ploys to curry favor with certain voters. I have no idea. But as you and other posters have said, he absolutely should have to explain himself.

I don't know if there's ever going to be an ideal number or percentage of people for handling something like this. I would imagine serious conversations would start at least at the point where negative perception outweighs positive, but that doesn't mean we also can't at least listen when vocal minorities speak up. A lot of societal progress has happened when relatively fewer numbers of people have fought for what they thought was right.
Of course we need to listen when anyone speaks, vocal minorities included, but what minority do you consider the white woke mob that took out a statue? It wasn't removed at the hand of the black community.

In today's environment, once you're perceived an enemy, a change of heart or disavowal of what one said or did in past is no protection. Kenney is a prime candidate for this kind of take out. The U.S. Judiciary Committee scoured a 35 year old high school yearbook to take out a judicial nominee.

It's called ''cancel culture.'' Change of heart? Disavowal? See Madame Defarge lol
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:00 PM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
Of course we need to listen when anyone speaks, vocal minorities included, but what minority do you consider the white woke mob that took out a statue? It wasn't removed at the hand of the black community.

In today's environment, once you're perceived an enemy, a change of heart or disavowal of what one said or did in past is no protection. Kenney is a prime candidate for this kind of take out. The U.S. Judiciary Committee scoured a 35 year old high school yearbook to take out a judicial nominee.

It's called ''cancel culture.'' Change of heart? Disavowal? See Madame Defarge lol
If the "white woke mob" this weekend was the first sign of trouble this statue ever had, you might be on to something.

But it wasn't.

That thing has been controversial since it was put up, especially with Philly's POC population, and had been vandalized enough times that by 2017 there was already plans to move it.

Quote:
The statue of Rizzo has been the subject of protest and controversy since it was erected in front of Philadelphia’s Municipal Services Building downtown in 1998.

“The statue has always been a point of contention for people of color,” Councilwoman Cindy Bass, who grew up in North Philadelphia during Rizzo’s tenure as mayor, told the local website Billy Penn. “It’s always been a lightening rod for us.”

Last August, Black Lives Matter activists protested in front of the statue and called for it to be taken down. They carried signs that read “Rizzo the Racist” and “lest we forget.” At one point, someone draped a Ku Klux Klan hood over Rizzo’s head.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...on-his-statue/

So it didn't suddenly become a problem last weekend, and it's not purely a white mob issue. It's been a lightning rod for forever, and a full three years ago there was enough momentum to decide to get rid of it. The fact that it finally happened after last weekend's protest shouldn't diminish that.
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:12 PM
 
452 posts, read 183,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
They evolve, and change, and improve over time.
If you were talking about advancements in technology, I would mostly agree. But if we are talking about society in general, historically and philosophically, this isn't a true statement. We might feel it's been somewhat true for the US but that's no guarantee for the future.
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:36 PM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
If you were talking about advancements in technology, I would mostly agree. But if we are talking about society in general, historically and philosophically, this isn't a true statement. We might feel it's been somewhat true for the US but that's no guarantee for the future.
I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on how society in general hasn't improved.

Nothing about the future is guaranteed, and given the current state of affairs, we still have a lot of work to do.

But as easy it is to be pessimistic, we should also remember that we live in a time that's socially far more accepting of different races, ethnicities, genders, and sexual identities than ever before. We're empowering more and different kinds of people and breaking down harmful stigmas, like disabilities or mental health and illness for example. Someone who's gay or trans or POC or a woman can see opportunities and acceptance that they couldn't before.

For all the jokes about "wokeness" that go around, we're having conversations and calling attention to things I never thought possible. A lot of this would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago, and here we are. It's a reason to be at least somewhat thankful, even if we're nowhere near where we need to be yet.
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Old 06-09-2020, 05:50 PM
 
106 posts, read 22,895 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on how society in general hasn't improved.

Nothing about the future is guaranteed, and given the current state of affairs, we still have a lot of work to do.

But as easy it is to be pessimistic, we should also remember that we live in a time that's socially far more accepting of different races, ethnicities, genders, and sexual identities than ever before. We're empowering more and different kinds of people and breaking down harmful stigmas, like disabilities or mental health and illness for example. Someone who's gay or trans or POC or a woman can see opportunities and acceptance that they couldn't before.

For all the jokes about "wokeness" that go around, we're having conversations and calling attention to things I never thought possible. A lot of this would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago, and here we are. It's a reason to be at least somewhat thankful, even if we're nowhere near where we need to be yet.
All sounded great until you mentioned ''having conversations''; where exactly has that been allowed these past several years?
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Old 06-09-2020, 05:53 PM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,780,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
All sounded great until you mentioned ''having conversations''; where exactly has that been allowed these past several years?
The social media mob sets the agenda and determines what can and cannot be discussed. They're also judge, jury, and executioner.
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Old 06-09-2020, 05:54 PM
 
106 posts, read 22,895 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
If the "white woke mob" this weekend was the first sign of trouble this statue ever had, you might be on to something.

But it wasn't.

That thing has been controversial since it was put up, especially with Philly's POC population, and had been vandalized enough times that by 2017 there was already plans to move it.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...on-his-statue/

So it didn't suddenly become a problem last weekend, and it's not purely a white mob issue. It's been a lightning rod for forever, and a full three years ago there was enough momentum to decide to get rid of it. The fact that it finally happened after last weekend's protest shouldn't diminish that.
Of course there's a recent history about the Rizzo statue led by BLM for the most part. I remember a 40+ year old black male career criminal ''student'' trashed it on his own. Prolly lots of white anarchists hitting on occassion with some childish spray paint job.

Still took the mob of white kids to do it in the end though.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:01 PM
 
106 posts, read 22,895 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
The social media mob sets the agenda and determines what can and cannot be discussed. They're also judge, jury, and executioner.
I've outlined my whole take on the social media judge, jury, and executioner theme somewhere in this forum. It's true, social media peoples' tribunal already underway.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:51 PM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
All sounded great until you mentioned ''having conversations''; where exactly has that been allowed these past several years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
The social media mob sets the agenda and determines what can and cannot be discussed. They're also judge, jury, and executioner.
Not to get too OT, but....

Social media is largely terrible, and it's easy to confuse that often hateful echo chamber for the entirety of societal discourse. It's not, and anyone is still largely free to talk about anything they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
Of course there's a recent history about the Rizzo statue led by BLM for the most part. I remember a 40+ year old black male career criminal ''student'' trashed it on his own. Prolly lots of white anarchists hitting on occassion with some childish spray paint job.

Still took the mob of white kids to do it in the end though.
So what if it did? You don't have to be part of a minority group to be an ally and an advocate. Sad to say, but most societal progress for POC's has occurred only when white America has gotten on board. Given that the statue's removal had stalled for three years, it's probably telling that its removal only finally happened when a mob of mostly whites descended upon it in high profile fashion.

The key thing is that dislike of the statue has not been "only" whites, as has been implied here in this forum. That's demonstrably false. So if their participation finally tipped the scales, what does it matter?
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