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Old 06-09-2020, 07:23 PM
 
1,670 posts, read 1,507,457 times
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I would've preferred a Gritty mural, but this works too:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...Nv8j-BWlcoPB5k
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Greater Philadelphia
335 posts, read 81,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessimprov View Post
I would've preferred a Gritty mural, but this works too:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...Nv8j-BWlcoPB5k

Reached my limit on free articles. Can you tell me what are the proposed ideas are?
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Old 06-09-2020, 08:28 PM
 
106 posts, read 22,895 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
Not to get too OT, but....

Social media is largely terrible, and it's easy to confuse that often hateful echo chamber for the entirety of societal discourse. It's not, and anyone is still largely free to talk about anything they want.



So what if it did? You don't have to be part of a minority group to be an ally and an advocate. Sad to say, but most societal progress for POC's has occurred only when white America has gotten on board. Given that the statue's removal had stalled for three years, it's probably telling that its removal only finally happened when a mob of mostly whites descended upon it in high profile fashion.

The key thing is that dislike of the statue has not been "only" whites, as has been implied here in this forum. That's demonstrably false. So if their participation finally tipped the scales, what does it matter?
Gotten on board? The guilty white crowd has hijacked the black cause lol. The black community could or should have done it since their the alleged victims of Rizzo's alleged racism.

What other areas can guilty whites use their patronizing racism to help the black community? The gentrifiers are moving blacks out. The hypocrisy is astounding.

ANTIFA and its anarchist-marxist beliefs hijacked a black cause and then used the black community as its pawns to trash cities high-end shopping districts before trashing their own neighborhoods. ANTIFA knew the black community would go for a looting spree. Any reason, Sixers championship, George Floyd.

ANTIFA thinks it's creating class warfare but it's just plain old stealing and blowing up ATM machines, but en masse. Using the black community as its pawns to wreck havoc in our cities and destabilize our systems of government.

Last edited by LNQ20; 06-09-2020 at 09:14 PM..
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:14 PM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
Gotten on board? The guilty white crowd has hijacked the black cause lol. The black community could or should have done it since their the alleged victims of Rizzo's alleged racism.

What other areas can guilty whites use their patronizing racism to help the black community? The gentrifiers are moving blacks out. The hypocrisy is astounding.

ANTIFA and its anarchist-marxist beliefs hijacked a black cause and then used the black community to trash cities high-end shopping districts before trashing their own neighborhoods. ANTIFA knew the black community go for the looting spree. Any reason, Sixers championship, George Floyd.

ANTIFA thinks it's creating class warfare but it's just plain old stealing and blowing up ATM machines, but en masse.
Just for and giggles, I reviewed some of the protest photos, and you know what? The Rizzo statue protest had quite a few dark faces in attendance, including one literally standing on top of it. So it wasn't all "woke white kids" looking to mess it up.

https://whyy.org/articles/photo-essa...floyd-killing/

(Fourth image down, in case you're wondering).

No one can claim that every single person who was there had the best of motives, and there definitely were some people who used the protests as an excuse to go bananas. But that shouldn't discount the ones that were there for the right reasons. And the thing is, you may be right to a certain extent about hypocrisy, but that only gets you so far. There is not one single person alive who's right on every issue, or takes the right stance every time. So if we limit our definition of people who are "allowed" to support a certain cause to those who fit the "right" definition, then that's exactly the kind of unhelpful purity test that the right accuses the left of all the time.

I live in a gentrifying neighborhood. Does that mean I can't support BLM causes or protest in support of my POC neighbors?

Last edited by toobusytoday; 06-10-2020 at 01:11 PM.. Reason: Please skip the *** words
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Old 06-10-2020, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
7,635 posts, read 3,664,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Maybe I'm wrong, but LNQ20 doesn't seem racist and isn't wrong about a number of points. I find it more interesting that others fail to address his/her points, especially the ones that make sense.

For example, why isn't Kenney catching flack for being the one that raised the statue? Do people just not want to talk about those things?
I get the same impression, which makes him (her? they don't sound like a her) unusual among those who argue as he does. I get the impression that most people who make those arguments actually wish to return to a time when everything was calm and fine (except for us uppity Negroes). And he isn't wrong on a number of points.

I remember responding to a story that ran in 2016 where an older woman from (I think it was) Maine was quoted as saying, "I want my country back!" with, "I'm sorry, Ma'am, but you can't have your country back, for that country had no room for people like me in it."

I guess you missed the new one Vince Fumo tore his former protégé on Facebook over this very subject. His post went viral.
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Old 06-10-2020, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
7,635 posts, read 3,664,251 times
Reputation: 4848
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshbyQuin View Post
Reached my limit on free articles. Can you tell me what are the proposed ideas are?
Subscriber to the rescue.

No specific ideas were floated in the article, just a quote from the Italian Market's merchants' and property owners' group, the United Merchants of the South 9th Street Business Association, that the group would replace the mural with something that "better represents the fabric" of the market and its neighborhood. (The merchants' group had issued this statement on June 4, saying at the time that the mural would become "a blank canvas" as soon as possible.)

I do find it interesting that the first person quoted in the story as expressing delight that the Rizzo mural was gone was a 70-year-old Italian-American woman. Shows you that it's not true that Rizzo was universally loved among his fellow Italian-Americans.
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Old 06-10-2020, 06:24 AM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,780,484 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
Not to get too OT, but....

Social media is largely terrible, and it's easy to confuse that often hateful echo chamber for the entirety of societal discourse. It's not, and anyone is still largely free to talk about anything they want.
Social media often demands that people quit, resign, get fired, etc. "Calls to resign" is a common one. Mob justice executed through demands, outrage and a massive amount of harassment. Ask anyone who's come into the limelight in the wrong way and they'll tell you it ruined their life. Closing out SM accounts with people's peers condemning them. It's a LOT more than an echo chamber, and yes, you can say anything you want, but you better not say the wrong thing.

Look at this loser from Hungry Pigeon in Philly (to tie it back so TooBusy doesn't step in). He has now quit his job. In this case, it wasn't really a bad thing (the guy is really stupid). But how many other situations have ruined people's lives when something goes viral? When the pressure mounts and the media shames people publicly to the point of forcing organizations to ouster someone, is it not the same thing as judge, jury, and executioner? Al Franken might be the most interesting case of this.
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Old 06-10-2020, 06:30 AM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,780,484 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I get the same impression, which makes him (her? they don't sound like a her) unusual among those who argue as he does. I get the impression that most people who make those arguments actually wish to return to a time when everything was calm and fine (except for us uppity Negroes). And he isn't wrong on a number of points.

I remember responding to a story that ran in 2016 where an older woman from (I think it was) Maine was quoted as saying, "I want my country back!" with, "I'm sorry, Ma'am, but you can't have your country back, for that country had no room for people like me in it."

I guess you missed the new one Vince Fumo tore his former protégé on Facebook over this very subject. His post went viral.
I'm not convinced of the bold. I think it's the approach and the hipocricy. How can Philadelphians ask for reform of the police without also talking about the extreme violence that is occurring in our neighborhoods? Has anyone here ever patrolled or responded to the gun violence in these communities for years at a time? How can our community not address the socioeconomic (or just economic) issues that are part of this problem? How can we just point at the police and say "it's all your fault" without talking about where everyone else failed (whites, blacks, etc.)?

In other words, the problem with removing a statue is that it was the easy thing to do, leaving 95% of the problem in place, making people feel like they accomplished something; when in fact, they accomplished nothing that will make these problems any better. And the ones who paid for it are shop owners and others who were probably FOR the cause.

I spoke with my aunt in Florida yesterday, and she was talking about her protest days back in the 60s. She was quite the social activist, who spent years advocating and protesting for civil rights. She felt like they didn't really accomplish much and feels like where we are now is partly her generation's failure. When asked what she would do differently, she responded with something like "We would sit down and look at the whole picture and consider a strategy for change. We would campaign, vote, and be honest about the problems we are really facing." I'm not sure how tangible that is, but I do think that we can let the anger we feel be the fuel while also organizing and discussing things in a productive way. But that can only happen if we are ready to talk about where all of us have failed, rather than just pointing the finger and blaming others.
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Old 06-10-2020, 07:36 AM
 
278 posts, read 159,915 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Social media often demands that people quit, resign, get fired, etc. "Calls to resign" is a common one. Mob justice executed through demands, outrage and a massive amount of harassment. Ask anyone who's come into the limelight in the wrong way and they'll tell you it ruined their life. Closing out SM accounts with people's peers condemning them. It's a LOT more than an echo chamber, and yes, you can say anything you want, but you better not say the wrong thing.

Look at this loser from Hungry Pigeon in Philly (to tie it back so TooBusy doesn't step in). He has now quit his job. In this case, it wasn't really a bad thing (the guy is really stupid). But how many other situations have ruined people's lives when something goes viral? When the pressure mounts and the media shames people publicly to the point of forcing organizations to ouster someone, is it not the same thing as judge, jury, and executioner? Al Franken might be the most interesting case of this.
I'm as ardent a critic of social media as you'll find, and I agree that we're often too quick to both canonize and vilify the voices we heae there. It's definitely a vehicle for knee-jerk reaction, often very harmful.

The thing I don't agree with is any assumption that social media is the only vehicle with which to communicate, and running into trouble on there equates to being silenced or not being able to have a conversation. That's not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I'm not convinced of the bold. I think it's the approach and the hipocricy. How can Philadelphians ask for reform of the police without also talking about the extreme violence that is occurring in our neighborhoods? Has anyone here ever patrolled or responded to the gun violence in these communities for years at a time? How can our community not address the socioeconomic (or just economic) issues that are part of this problem? How can we just point at the police and say "it's all your fault" without talking about where everyone else failed (whites, blacks, etc.)?

In other words, the problem with removing a statue is that it was the easy thing to do, leaving 95% of the problem in place, making people feel like they accomplished something; when in fact, they accomplished nothing that will make these problems any better. And the ones who paid for it are shop owners and others who were probably FOR the cause.

I spoke with my aunt in Florida yesterday, and she was talking about her protest days back in the 60s. She was quite the social activist, who spent years advocating and protesting for civil rights. She felt like they didn't really accomplish much and feels like where we are now is partly her generation's failure. When asked what she would do differently, she responded with something like "We would sit down and look at the whole picture and consider a strategy for change. We would campaign, vote, and be honest about the problems we are really facing." I'm not sure how tangible that is, but I do think that we can let the anger we feel be the fuel while also organizing and discussing things in a productive way. But that can only happen if we are ready to talk about where all of us have failed, rather than just pointing the finger and blaming others.
You're absolutely right that true reform is complicated and nuanced, and goes far beyond one single government entity. Reforming the police won't do it all, that's true--but is anyone seriously taking that view? The messaging I've heard does not suggest these actions are a cure-all for what ails us, but simply a critical step toward addressing something that does exacerbate a lot of the issues these communities face. The statue may have been emblematic of that, but protests still continued after it was gone, so no one was saying "Well, we got that down, mission accomplished, time to go home."

And the thing is, I don't quite agree that "nothing" has been accomplished. A POC friend of mine posted a rundown recently about what the protests have accomplished, and it's more than you expect. For one key example, police departments are banning chokeholds and updating use-of-force guidelines, and officers nationwide are suddenly facing charges for violence where they really didn't before. And municipalities are actually having conversations about the funding and militarization and makeup of police departments. The fact that we're even discussing dismantling police departments at all is incredible.

(And despite what the name implies, it's not getting rid of police, but remaking them from the ground up. For a really interesting example of what that might look like, see this recent NYT article about what Camden did and how successful they've been with it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/u...lice-mean.html)

Last edited by Fireshaker; 06-10-2020 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:25 AM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,780,484 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
I'm as ardent a critic of social media as you'll find, and I agree that we're often too quick to both canonize and vilify the voices we heae there. It's definitely a vehicle for knee-jerk reaction, often very harmful.

The thing I don't agree with is any assumption that social media is the only vehicle with which to communicate, and running into trouble on there equates to being silenced or not being able to have a conversation. That's not the case.
You are right that it is not the only communication vehicle, but it is a primary method that tends to silence other methods. It's how you confirm that Aunt Carol is racist. Or that your best friend is in support of BLM, even though he never mentioned it when we hung out. These things tend to hide and social media is the platform for people to promote and condemn. The pandemic makes it worse because we're all avoiding the public more than normal.

The fact that the media reads and reports on social media is probably the key factor in how it becomes so abused. It's lazy reporting and glorifying opinions and it creates mass hysteria. It's this force that is serving as the consensus for what is right and wrong in a lot of ways. I was speaking with someone the other day that was saying they would rather say nothing than be misunderstood and branded with an unfair label. That is scary. Even in public, people are recording and tweeting/posting all the time with person being out of context. Social media crosses mediums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
You're absolutely right that true reform is complicated and nuanced, and goes far beyond one single government entity. Reforming the police won't do it all, that's true--but is anyone seriously taking that view? The messaging I've heard does not suggest these actions are a cure-all for what ails us, but simply a critical step toward addressing something that does exacerbate a lot of the issues these communities face. The statue may have been emblematic of that, but protests still continued after it was gone, so no one was saying "Well, we got that down, mission accomplished, time to go home."

And the thing is, I don't quite agree that "nothing" has been accomplished. A POC friend of mine posted a rundown recently about what the protests have accomplished, and it's more than you expect. For one key example, police departments are banning chokeholds and updating use-of-force guidelines, and officers nationwide are suddenly facing charges for violence where they really didn't before. And municipalities are actually having conversations about the funding and militarization and makeup of police departments. The fact that we're even discussing dismantling police departments at all is incredible.

(And despite what the name implies, it's not getting rid of police, but remaking them from the ground up. For a really interesting example of what that might look like, see this recent NYT article about what Camden did and how successful they've been with it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/u...lice-mean.html)
"Nothing" was a poor choice of wording on my part. I do recognize that removing a statue is a result of people having awareness for causes/ideas and it is a stepping stone. I do get that. However, how will the changes that are being demanded of the police force (chockeholds and use-of-force, among other important changes) reduce gang violence and the drug trade in predominantly black communities (or any communities)? Surely, it can't all be a policing problem. There must be reflection by strong leaders to call out where communities need to be willing to change to meet the change that is happening with police departments. This is where I see little discussion, but maybe it is happening?

It is promising that so many young people of all colors are out. But these young people need to be organized, not polarize those that might even be their allies (e.g. the mayor of Minneapolis was recently put on the spot by a very verbal protester in a way that led to disrespect and frustration), and have a specific agenda. Organization and honesty is what I'm looking for, I guess.

Last edited by AJNEOA; 06-10-2020 at 09:46 AM..
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