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Old 06-10-2020, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Center City
7,373 posts, read 8,440,190 times
Reputation: 10681

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I do recognize that removing a statue is a result of people having awareness for causes/ideas and it is a stepping stone. I do get that. However, how will the changes that are being demanded of the police force (chockeholds and use-of-force, among other important changes) reduce gang violence and the drug trade in predominantly black communities (or any communities)? Surely, it can't all be a policing problem.
This comes across as an either/or argument. Just because the city is acknowledging its failure to understand and address symbols of oppression and to implement police bans on violence against its own citizens doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be working to remove other obstacles to safety and inclusion for our AA citizens. I don’t see any value in waiting for the former before we’ve figured out solutions to the more complex latter challenge.

We need to accept traditional models of policing in the AA community have failed. For my money, we need to first listen to the community and get their views on why it’s failed and how they want to replace it. I could see neighborhood recruiting of people who know how to engage their neighbors to partner in reducing drugs and violence in their streets. All but a handful of criminals want this to end. Sending in police from “outside” who have a poor history among AAs hasn’t worked.

It’s obviously more complex than this. And it’s also a solution being suggested by a white person who doesn’t live in their neighborhood. That’s why I think we need to listen first rather than rush in another solution that doesn’t take account of the needs of the biggest stakeholders.

But removing symbols of racism and oppression are important right now. If the city is not willing to do this bare minimum, then no one’s going to trust our commitment to change, as we’ve been down this road before.
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Old 06-10-2020, 11:30 AM
 
261 posts, read 150,482 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I was speaking with someone the other day that was saying they would rather say nothing than be misunderstood and branded with an unfair label. That is scary. Even in public, people are recording and tweeting/posting all the time with person being out of context. Social media crosses mediums.
I graduated college in 2004, right before Facebook and camera phones became the norm. And I remain eternally grateful that I did, because my youthful exploits were not broadcast for all to see. So yes, I totally agree that the potential for wanton, reckless destruction is there and something we do all too easily.

But, and this is a big one, we do need to consider personal responsibility. You have to be prepared to be held accountable for things you post online, just as you would if you delivered it in any other medium. If you say things that are stupid, inflammatory, racist, or hateful, well, that's on you. You own it, good or bad. I feel like a lot of people still don't really understand that, and a lot of the issues I've seen are from awful people who always were awful, but now just have a wider platform for their awfulness.

And if it's that worrisome, don't use it. Who cares? I barely use it. My wife, who is a teacher, has to be very careful about her online presence so she doesn't even have an account. There are other ways to make your voice heard that don't include social media.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
However, how will the changes that are being demanded of the police force (chockeholds and use-of-force, among other important changes) reduce gang violence and the drug trade in predominantly black communities (or any communities)? Surely, it can't all be a policing problem. There must be reflection by strong leaders to call out where communities need to be willing to change to meet the change that is happening with police departments. This is where I see little discussion, but maybe it is happening?
It won't, but re-establishing law enforcement trust and cooperation with these communities is a huge start.

The rest, I think, depends on continuing to push our elected leaders to enact common-sense policies to end the drug war, properly fund education and youth programs, and spur re-investment in neighborhoods that have suffered from decades of redlining and disinvestment. As you said, there are a lot of factors at play and one thing won't do it all, but the perfect is the enemy of the good. We should take our progress where we can get it.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
7,069 posts, read 3,387,305 times
Reputation: 4517
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I'm not convinced of the bold. I think it's the approach and the hipocricy. How can Philadelphians ask for reform of the police without also talking about the extreme violence that is occurring in our neighborhoods? Has anyone here ever patrolled or responded to the gun violence in these communities for years at a time? How can our community not address the socioeconomic (or just economic) issues that are part of this problem? How can we just point at the police and say "it's all your fault" without talking about where everyone else failed (whites, blacks, etc.)?

In other words, the problem with removing a statue is that it was the easy thing to do, leaving 95% of the problem in place, making people feel like they accomplished something; when in fact, they accomplished nothing that will make these problems any better. And the ones who paid for it are shop owners and others who were probably FOR the cause.

I spoke with my aunt in Florida yesterday, and she was talking about her protest days back in the 60s. She was quite the social activist, who spent years advocating and protesting for civil rights. She felt like they didn't really accomplish much and feels like where we are now is partly her generation's failure. When asked what she would do differently, she responded with something like "We would sit down and look at the whole picture and consider a strategy for change. We would campaign, vote, and be honest about the problems we are really facing." I'm not sure how tangible that is, but I do think that we can let the anger we feel be the fuel while also organizing and discussing things in a productive way. But that can only happen if we are ready to talk about where all of us have failed, rather than just pointing the finger and blaming others.
First paragraph, I'll buy.

Second paragraph, I have my Issues with removing monuments to controversial people; writing people out of history is what authoritarian and totalitarian societies do. What we should do with the Rizzo statue once we figure out where to put it again — and I think it should still be displayed somewhere — is to re-contextualize it by surrounding it with material explaining why he is such a controversial figure yet merits remembering.

Actually, I wish there were a Kehinde Wiley available to tackle this job. Wiley, who was chosen to do the official portrait of President Barack Obama, is known for his taking works of classical European art and replacing their heroic or legendary figures with young black men in contemporary street dress.

One of his most ambitious works, and his first sculpture, sits in front of the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts in Richmond, just down the street from Monument Avenue. The museum commissioned it. Called "Rumors of War," it's a dead-on replica of the equestrian statue of Confederate general James Ewell Brown ("Jeb") Stuart on Monument Avenue — except the man on horseback is a young African-American man, dreadlocks in a ponytail, dressed in urban street gear. You might want to read what the museum that commissioned it says about it.

Dismantle the Jeb Stuart statue and this one loses its context and its critique.

Your aunt speaks wisdom in the third paragraph. Unfortunately, it's the sort of wisdom that only comes with age. The young are disinclined to listen to their elders here, and often it's because they failed to effect the change they sought when they were themselves young — and their youthful passion contributed to the failure.

The thing I hope is that this time, the history that took place as tragedy the first time won't devolve into farce this time. It could, however, if we're not careful.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Center City
7,373 posts, read 8,440,190 times
Reputation: 10681
Another Rizzo honor bites the dust: https://whyy.org/articles/rizzo-name...eid=0afad5b6f3
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Center City
7,373 posts, read 8,440,190 times
Reputation: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireshaker View Post
The key thing is that dislike of the statue has not been "only" whites, as has been implied here in this forum. That's demonstrably false. So if their participation finally tipped the scales, what does it matter?
I’m sure African Americans weren’t happy that the statue was even placed across from City Hall in the first place, let alone wanting to have it removed. I didn’t like looking at it either, this was not just because of Rizzo’s racism but of his mistreatment of the city’s gay community during the 1970s. But here’s the point: if people of color and gay people had the power to remove the statue, it would have been gone long before now. Lacking that power, the statue was only removed once people who do have the power (in this instance, white people and straight people) were either convinced or shamed into taking action.

The now-gone poster you engaged with was making the argument that it was apparently inappropriate that it took a the voices of a large number of young white people who refused to accept overt symbols of oppression and racism in the city. He seems to imply this is almost shameful they did so when in reality, it was the only way it was likely to finally take place.

Arguments otherwise strike me as non sequiturs. You did well to engage him civilly as long as you did.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:00 PM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,718,572 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
This comes across as an either/or argument. Just because the city is acknowledging its failure to understand and address symbols of oppression and to implement police bans on violence against its own citizens doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be working to remove other obstacles to safety and inclusion for our AA citizens. I don’t see any value in waiting for the former before we’ve figured out solutions to the more complex latter challenge.

We need to accept traditional models of policing in the AA community have failed. For my money, we need to first listen to the community and get their views on why it’s failed and how they want to replace it. I could see neighborhood recruiting of people who know how to engage their neighbors to partner in reducing drugs and violence in their streets. All but a handful of criminals want this to end. Sending in police from “outside” who have a poor history among AAs hasn’t worked.

It’s obviously more complex than this. And it’s also a solution being suggested by a white person who doesn’t live in their neighborhood. That’s why I think we need to listen first rather than rush in another solution that doesn’t take account of the needs of the biggest stakeholders.

But removing symbols of racism and oppression are important right now. If the city is not willing to do this bare minimum, then no one’s going to trust our commitment to change, as we’ve been down this road before.
As always, I respect your post. I think that listening carefully will happen if two things are present: 1) protesters must be organized, stop any violence they have the power to stop, condemn violence that has/may occur, and speak with thought rather than with furor, and 2) have an actionable, specific set of goals that make sense.

I think that has started to happen, but it needs to be under strict control, and as I've said before, I don't see the leadership there to keep it reined in. If it continues to be different messages in different cities, with mixed violence, and an overarching dialog of "blame everyone else", people are not going to listen.

Note: I wanted to listen more than I have, but the violence and confusion and terrible organization has really polarized me. I agree that policing needs to change and police brutality need to be abolished wherever possible. But I am angry over what has happened and dismayed at the lack of organization; and fearful of where this will go with so much anger and a seemingly missing voice of reason/thought.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:53 PM
 
5,546 posts, read 5,718,572 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
First paragraph, I'll buy.

Second paragraph, I have my Issues with removing monuments to controversial people; writing people out of history is what authoritarian and totalitarian societies do. What we should do with the Rizzo statue once we figure out where to put it again — and I think it should still be displayed somewhere — is to re-contextualize it by surrounding it with material explaining why he is such a controversial figure yet merits remembering.

Actually, I wish there were a Kehinde Wiley available to tackle this job. Wiley, who was chosen to do the official portrait of President Barack Obama, is known for his taking works of classical European art and replacing their heroic or legendary figures with young black men in contemporary street dress.

One of his most ambitious works, and his first sculpture, sits in front of the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts in Richmond, just down the street from Monument Avenue. The museum commissioned it. Called "Rumors of War," it's a dead-on replica of the equestrian statue of Confederate general James Ewell Brown ("Jeb") Stuart on Monument Avenue — except the man on horseback is a young African-American man, dreadlocks in a ponytail, dressed in urban street gear. You might want to read what the museum that commissioned it says about it.

Dismantle the Jeb Stuart statue and this one loses its context and its critique.

Your aunt speaks wisdom in the third paragraph. Unfortunately, it's the sort of wisdom that only comes with age. The young are disinclined to listen to their elders here, and often it's because they failed to effect the change they sought when they were themselves young — and their youthful passion contributed to the failure.

The thing I hope is that this time, the history that took place as tragedy the first time won't devolve into farce this time. It could, however, if we're not careful.
Your wisdom is always appreciated. I lived in Richmond, VA for 8 years before moving to Philly. From my old apartment on Grove Avenue, I could see Jefferson Davis' statue that recognizes him as President of the CSA. I am also familiar with Rumors of War, but I have not yet seen it. I am aware of his equestrian works, something that VMFA has a lot of. Very cool.
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Old 06-10-2020, 03:46 PM
 
95 posts, read 11,515 times
Reputation: 93
Funny how LNQ20 gets banned and all of sudden certain posters reappear from under their rocks. The truth will not be tolerated!


If anybody believes that by removing Rizzo's name, statue and mural is going to somehow improve the lives of African-Americans, they're living in a fantasyland. (I have no skin in the game, doesn't affect me). None of what's going on is going to help them, it's only going to hurt.


Most of the white faces you see are after one thing - socialism. African-Americans are simply pawns in their game. The Democratic Party has went so far left, they're now AGAINST the working people. The only 'revolution' to ever go from the top downward. Scary stuff.


Keep rallying around criminals, censoring the 'wrong' kind of speech, tearing down statues, defunding the police, allowing destructive crimes to property be the norm, referring to drug addiction as a 'disease,' and pulling TV shows and movies ... let's see where we are in twenty years.


The media should be ashamed of themselves for pushing the false narrative that white on black violence is a problem in this country (they're reporting it all wrong. Numbers don't lie). It isn't. Cops aren't trying to eradicate blacks, either. How about people take personal responsibility for their lives and stop blaming the boogeyman?


When all this settles, good or bad, we'll all still be who we are. Good job by the left, though, in allowing so much damage to be done to the country.


When/If Trump wins in November, be ready for more of the same destructive and violent behavior from the left.


Anyway, have it ... most of you people make me sick.

Last edited by Mr. Calendar; 06-10-2020 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 06-10-2020, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,335 posts, read 2,860,552 times
Reputation: 1492
People project meaning into objects and sacrifice them as a means of dealing with a problem. If your wife has cancer we will project the illness into this chicken and after some ceremonial prayers sacrifice the chicken. Problem solved.
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Old 06-10-2020, 05:01 PM
 
95 posts, read 22,560 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNQ20 View Post
All sounded great until you mentioned ''having conversations''; where exactly has that been allowed these past several years?
Those conversations are mostly one-way yelling at somebody who is determined to be insufficiently woke.
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