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Old 06-02-2020, 07:30 AM
 
632 posts, read 476,235 times
Reputation: 1011

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I think the simplest explanation I can think of is:

He's what Donald Trump wants to be when he grows up.



(emphasis added)

What was it that I just said above?

Put another way, he had the Trump magic figured out years before Trump. He has this over The Donald, however: he did not insist on fawning sycophancy from those who worked for him, and he wasn't as petty and vindictive in dealing with those who criticized him.





We complain about politicians, but they serve a purpose. Again, Trump is a pretty lousy politician, even when he does work with others he doesn't care much for to get something done.



Indeed he did, but HRC lost because a sizable minority of black voters who turned out for Obama enthusiastically twice stayed home rather than vote for her in '16. Had she gotten as many black votes as Obama had four years earlier, she would have won Pennsylvania, and we wouldn't be having these discussions now.

True, 3 percent is a tiny fraction of the black electorate. But I hear more blacks (including a friend of mine I value highly; he's actually half-African-American, half-Dominican) openly stating their support of Trump this time around than I did four years ago. Trump is actually losing some support among his base, in particular older voters dismayed by his handling of the coronavirus crisis, but if he can pick off 2 percent of the black vote, he could win Pennsylvania narrowly again if blacks turn out for Biden in Hillary Clintonesque numbers.
Rizzo didn’t demand sycophancy and wasn’t as vindictive as Trump because, though he was an authoritarian, he wasn’t a white ethno nationalist wannabe dictator. Trump wants to be Putin not Rizzo. Rizzo would never have pulled the stunt Trump did yesterday at St. John’s. Rizzo was largely an early adopter of George Wallace’s politics among northern Democrats.

Black turnout and turnout among Democrat leaning independents will be higher in 2020 than in 2016. Trump isn’t going to improve his vote share among black voters, but even if he did, increased black turnout would still hurt Trump. He needs to turnout more infrequent or non-voting whites than he did in 2016 if he wants to win PA. He’s not going to have the enormous benefit of depressed black turnout or third party candidates this time. His campaign is trying to depress black turnout but it’s not going to work this time, especially not in the wake of recent events.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Center City
7,298 posts, read 8,407,690 times
Reputation: 10588
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR Valentine View Post
Black turnout and turnout among Democrat leaning independents will be higher in 2020 than in 2016. Trump isn’t going to improve his vote share among black voters, but even if he did, increased black turnout would still hurt Trump. He needs to turnout more infrequent or non-voting whites than he did in 2016 if he wants to win PA. He’s not going to have the enormous benefit of depressed black turnout or third party candidates this time. His campaign is trying to depress black turnout but it’s not going to work this time, especially not in the wake of recent events.
Biden doesn't also suffer from the demonization HRC received for decades going back to her time as First Lady of Arkansas. She spent most of that time "adjusting" her image in order to get a fair shake from the media, which only served to make her appear inauthentic. And when I say demonization by the media, I'm not referring solely to Fox. Take a look: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/p...ic-editor.html.

In contrast, though gaffe-prone, Biden is an affable guy that doesn't engender the dissection HRC still undergoes. He comes across a sincere and authentic - an image he doesn't have to work to project. This gives him a leg up because it's work he won't need to do that HRC took on in 2016. He also doesn't have to work to come acorss as both a tough leader and an empathic person - a dance professional women in powerful positions do everyday in order to be effective. Us guys get away with a lot more than women.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:57 AM
 
5,096 posts, read 3,143,679 times
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Does any one else wonder what the statue is made out of that it is going to take weeks for it to be removed? I really was surprised it didn't get pulled down when people were pulling on it the other day.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:01 AM
 
5,096 posts, read 3,143,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FindingZen View Post
Not unlike the Confederate monuments, I believe the statue should be put in a private museum where those who wish to look at it may do so.

I agree.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:04 AM
 
374 posts, read 805,625 times
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Rizzo was a great mayor who kept the white neighborhoods safe. The statue should be relocated outside the city to a safer area.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:17 AM
 
632 posts, read 476,235 times
Reputation: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
Does any one else wonder what the statue is made out of that it is going to take weeks for it to be removed? I really was surprised it didn't get pulled down when people were pulling on it the other day.
It’s not what the statue is made of but how the statue is anchored to the plaza that makes it difficult to pull down or relocate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
Biden doesn't also suffer from the demonization HRC received for decades going back to her time as First Lady of Arkansas. She spent most of that time "adjusting" her image in order to get a fair shake from the media, which only served to make her appear inauthentic. And when I say demonization by the media, I'm not referring solely to Fox. Take a look: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/p...ic-editor.html.

In contrast, though gaffe-prone, Biden is an affable guy that doesn't engender the dissection HRC still undergoes. He comes across a sincere and authentic - an image he doesn't have to work to project. This gives him a leg up because it's work he won't need to do that HRC took on in 2016. He also doesn't have to work to come acorss as both a tough leader and an empathic person - a dance professional women in powerful positions do everyday in order to be effective. Us guys get away with a lot more than women.
That’s true. It matters simply that he’s male as well. The general perception among the public is that Trump’s challenger needs to be strong, IOW male. Also, the white female candidates polled terribly with black male voters head-to-head versus Trump. In polling in January and February Biden, Pete, Sanders and Bloomberg were all 90%+ with black men and 95%+ with black women. Klobuchar and Warren were 73% and 70% with black men and 95%+ with black women.

Last edited by BR Valentine; 06-02-2020 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:00 PM
 
8,107 posts, read 18,631,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinE View Post
Rizzo was a great mayor who kept the white neighborhoods safe.
Well, I suppose you deserve credit for having the most honest pro-Rizzo comment on this thread.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:46 PM
 
27,961 posts, read 30,454,479 times
Reputation: 28153
I think there's a larger issue that has been glossed over here.

Growing up in Philly in the 70s, I recall my parents hating him because he was a corrupt crook. I think it's fair to say he couldn't have done much to arrest the slide in manufacturing that happened. But it's also true that running a corrupt city government didn't exactly make the City appealing to new business, either.

So, all that's to say, I don't have a high opinion of Rizzo--not in the least.

That said, the larger issue is that taking down statues is absolutely a way to erase history and freedom of speech.

I live in California now and I had been pointing out to a Taiwanese co-worker all of the ways in which our civil liberties are being eroded. Mostly I'd been pointing out the increased surveillance and everything we do being tracked and monitored by computers. Also, I pointed out that there is a lot of subliminal symbolism put in books, movies, TV shows, etc. (a very big topic) designed to make us see things in certain ways (ways that are not in our self interest). She would sort of roll her eyes at me, especially with the symbolism stuff.

I had never mentioned anything much about the erasure of history or taking down of statues. But, over time, she started connecting the dots. She noticed that taking down of statues had become a thing. About a year ago, she said to me "This is what the Communists did in China during the Cultural Revolution".

This is how the process works. You take down a statue of someone detestable (and I would agree, Frank Rizzo was detestable--for lots of reasons), and then you just expand your definition of who or what is detestable until more and more history is erased, more and more statues are taken down, and more and more people and speech are targeted. Before long, the authoritarians come after YOU or someone in YOUR family or friend group. This is the way it always happens. And it can happen very, very, quickly. Believe it.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
245 posts, read 162,467 times
Reputation: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This is how the process works. You take down a statue of someone detestable (and I would agree, Frank Rizzo was detestable--for lots of reasons), and then you just expand your definition of who or what is detestable until more and more history is erased, more and more statues are taken down, and more and more people and speech are targeted. Before long, the authoritarians come after YOU or someone in YOUR family or friend group. This is the way it always happens. And it can happen very, very, quickly. Believe it.
No one is trying to erase history.

The issue is the placement of the statue. By placing a statue on city property—in front of the Municipal Services Building, no less, with larger-than-life arm outstretched toward City Hall—it’s tantamount to saying:

“We, the people who govern the City of Philadelphia—today, in 2020. We the people who create and enforce ordinances, deny your building permits, maintain your parks, educate your children, take away 3.8712% of your wages… We who dispatch the police to quell disturbances. We stand behind the man depicted here. We endorse who he was and what he represents.”

But no: I, for one, want absolutely no one to forget Frank Rizzo. Nor do I want anyone to forget slavery, the Civil War, the Trail of Tears, or interment of Japanese Americans during World War II.

How about this: Move the statue. I’m sure there’s some private group that would be happy to host the statue on its grounds.

Last edited by briantroutman; 06-02-2020 at 06:56 PM..
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:06 PM
 
1,578 posts, read 1,447,662 times
Reputation: 935
As for Rizzo doing a good thing with the commuter tunnel, since he was apparently so terrible at other things, it doesn't mean that another mayor couldn't have had the commuter tunnel done or something similar enough. However, I don't know the situation back then at that time either. . .
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