King of Prussia - Brownstones at Valley Forge (Philadelphia, Chester: apartment, townhouses)

[Flyers Girl]

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

Thanks. I'm aware of those towns, and although they offer a great town center, its still tough to find a condo in those towns where you can walk everywhere. We would have a car, but we've lived overseas in big cities for the last 15 years, and were just use to the more urban, walk everywhere lifestyle, which is not what most of the U.S. is about.


I'll visit West Chester and Ardmore and check it out more, besides what I've seen online. Some of the towns however are crazy with proprty taxes as you get closer to Philly.

There's a regular poster here who lives in downtown Media and hardly ever drives. A lot of the retail in walkable downtowns in the burbs are boutiques and gift shops mixed in with restaurants (see West Chester). Although WC is still a great area, the difference with Media is that it has, within walking distance, the types of stores that a person actually needs to go to on a regular basis - a grocery store, for example. There are, of course, restaurants galore and unique retail shops, but there are also banks, hair and nail salons, a pharmacy, a copy center, Urgent Care... You get the drift. In other words, if you live in downtown Media, you can truly have a car-free lifestyle similar to what you would have in the city.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by Patmcpsu

I agree; this development is a step in the right direction. Once cars were invented, developers had to start from scratch on how to develop a community. For the 2nd half of the 1900s the answer was "houses over here, shopping centers over there, with giant parking lots everywhere". It worked, but it creates the bland suburban sprawl that is now ubiquitous throughout the USA.



Developers are still fine-tuning their formula; developments like KOP Town Center are just the first generation. After they fine-tune things, they'll be a lot more attractive and practical. Ironically, I predict the end-result will resemble town layouts made prior to cars. This will either be by using efficiently-designed parking garages, or having driverless cars that operate more like taxis than personal vehicles.

Are you familiar with an organization called Strong Towns?

If you're not, I think you should be. Its founder notes (among other things) that one of the reasons the traditional town form - Media, by the way, is a good example of it - has lasted so long is because it works and has passed the test of time.

Our postwar, segregated-use, autocentric pattern of suburban development has done neither of these things.

[JakeinChina]

Originally Posted by Flyers Girl

There's a regular poster here who lives in downtown Media and hardly ever drives. A lot of the retail in walkable downtowns in the burbs are boutiques and gift shops mixed in with restaurants (see West Chester). Although WC is still a great area, the difference with Media is that it has, within walking distance, the types of stores that a person actually needs to go to on a regular basis - a grocery store, for example. There are, of course, restaurants galore and unique retail shops, but there are also banks, hair and nail salons, a pharmacy, a copy center, Urgent Care... You get the drift. In other words, if you live in downtown Media, you can truly have a car-free lifestyle similar to what you would have in the city.

Thanks. I'll check out Media, but I also still want to look into this KOP Town Center place. This is exactly my point, that many towns say they are walkable, but not many are walkable to a grocery store, coffee shops and places that my family are interested in walking to.


Also, Ardmore and West Chester are nice towns, but it isn't easy to find a condo or single family home that's within say a 10 minute walk to the center of town. This is why I was interested in this KOP Town Center living. Its truely walkable with a Wegmen's, dry cleaners, restaurants, Starbucks, gym right there and they are places that I would use daily.


I know KOP Town Center has its negatives, but I think this really is the trend going forward.

[briantroutman]

Originally Posted by Flyers Girl

There's a regular poster here who lives in downtown Media and hardly ever drives.

Were you perhaps referring to me? If so, I didn’t realize I had graduated to being a “regular” around here.

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

Thanks. I'll check out Media, but I also still want to look into this KOP Town Center place. This is exactly my point, that many towns say they are walkable, but not many are walkable to a grocery store, coffee shops and places that my family are interested in walking to.

Yes, Media most certainly has all of those amenities you mentioned (grocery store, coffee shops) within walking distance. The main difference is that Media is a real town; King of Prussia Town Center is essentially an outdoor suburban shopping mall with apartments tacked on.

There is no public library inside KOP Town Center, no elementary school, no playgrounds, no community playroom, no theatre, no festivals where local artists sell their work, no parades, no community events...etc. Media has all of these things KOP Town Center lacks because it’s been a place where people live, make friends, and raise families for over 150 years—not a development conceived by a real estate investment trust two years ago for the purposes of turning a profit (which is precisely what KOP Town Center is).

The restaurants on Media’s State Street (the main street) are all local. For instance, I had a conversation on the trolley (again, something that KOP currently lacks—rail transit) with a local chef who was hired by Media’s newest pizza restaurant to reformulate the dough because initial reviews of the pizza were lackluster. There’s a new coffee shop in town that roasts beans in-house. Contrast that with KOP Town Center: Starbucks, Fogo de Chão, Mission BBQ, Honeygrow—it’s a carbon copy of countless suburban developments across the country.

Perhaps KOP Town Center’s top-down structure, the dominance of chain businesses, and its lack of a real community or any semblance of cultural or educational amenities doesn’t matter to you. And if not, fine—you’ll certainly have more opportunities to spend money on merchandise in King of Prussia. But if any of those less-than-materialistic aspects matter to you, organic communities such as Media have much more to offer.

Good luck in your search, and let me know if I can be of any further help.

[chessimprov]

You might like Ellis Preserve in Newtown Square too. They just opened a Whole Foods last fall there.

[Flyers Girl]

Originally Posted by briantroutman

Were you perhaps referring to me? If so, I didn’t realize I had graduated to being a “regular” around here.

Yes, I was referring to you.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by chessimprov

You might like Ellis Preserve in Newtown Square too. They just opened a Whole Foods last fall there.

Ellis Preserve has something the Village at Valley Forge doesn't, namely, a "town common" at its center.

Its developer - which moved its headquarters there last year - decided to preserve the core of the campus of the girls' school ARCO built its headquarters around intact, as its previous owner had. The ensemble of English picturesque houses and a John Haviland-ish Greek Revival main hall curving around a central green is very charming.

And the pieces fit together fairly well too.

But I gotta also back briantroutman up on the virtues of Organic Urbanism over the Instant variety. (And apparently, just like with groceries, you will pay more for the organic version, but it will be better for you.)

[TownDweller]

As OP said, the conundrum is finding non-SF housing in those organic towns. A few towns like West Chester, Phoenixville and Conshohocken seem to have it, but most of the rest (Media, Doylestown, Main Line towns) do not. Of course, there is always the city but that brings in a lot of other issues (schools, city tax, etc.).

[JakeinChina]

Originally Posted by briantroutman

Were you perhaps referring to me? If so, I didn’t realize I had graduated to being a “regular” around here.




Yes, Media most certainly has all of those amenities you mentioned (grocery store, coffee shops) within walking distance. The main difference is that Media is a real town; King of Prussia Town Center is essentially an outdoor suburban shopping mall with apartments tacked on.

There is no public library inside KOP Town Center, no elementary school, no playgrounds, no community playroom, no theatre, no festivals where local artists sell their work, no parades, no community events...etc. Media has all of these things KOP Town Center lacks because it’s been a place where people live, make friends, and raise families for over 150 years—not a development conceived by a real estate investment trust two years ago for the purposes of turning a profit (which is precisely what KOP Town Center is).

The restaurants on Media’s State Street (the main street) are all local. For instance, I had a conversation on the trolley (again, something that KOP currently lacks—rail transit) with a local chef who was hired by Media’s newest pizza restaurant to reformulate the dough because initial reviews of the pizza were lackluster. There’s a new coffee shop in town that roasts beans in-house. Contrast that with KOP Town Center: Starbucks, Fogo de Chão, Mission BBQ, Honeygrow—it’s a carbon copy of countless suburban developments across the country.

Perhaps KOP Town Center’s top-down structure, the dominance of chain businesses, and its lack of a real community or any semblance of cultural or educational amenities doesn’t matter to you. And if not, fine—you’ll certainly have more opportunities to spend money on merchandise in King of Prussia. But if any of those less-than-materialistic aspects matter to you, organic communities such as Media have much more to offer.

Good luck in your search, and let me know if I can be of any further help.

Thanks Brian. I appreciate the info and I certainly will look into Media as an option, along with West Chester, Ardmore and a few others.

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by Flyers Girl

There's a regular poster here who lives in downtown Media and hardly ever drives. A lot of the retail in walkable downtowns in the burbs are boutiques and gift shops mixed in with restaurants (see West Chester). Although WC is still a great area, the difference with Media is that it has, within walking distance, the types of stores that a person actually needs to go to on a regular basis - a grocery store, for example. There are, of course, restaurants galore and unique retail shops, but there are also banks, hair and nail salons, a pharmacy, a copy center, Urgent Care... You get the drift. In other words, if you live in downtown Media, you can truly have a car-free lifestyle similar to what you would have in the city.

I think you and briantroutman both really hit on what I think is important in a place to live and raise a family. It's not just the walkability but also the sense of community you get when you have schools and a library, parades and small locally owned businesses in the town itself. We moved around alot and tended to focus on three things - affordability, distance to work and good schools. Until we moved to where we are now in the Lehigh Valley, I hadn't really considered how really nice it is to have a town center but it is what makes it a real community. My kids have marched in the Halloween parade as boy and girl scouts and later in the High School marching band. There's a weekly farmers market in the summer, a rail trail to walk/bike on, a local pool, etc., etc. That's not something you are going to find in KOP.