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Old 05-22-2019, 09:10 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,959 posts, read 38,958,719 times
Reputation: 21004

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
Yes, but rail hasn't seem the same decline as far as I'm aware. I'm guessing that people still consider taking the subway as a good option versus Uber/Lyft, while taking the bus is becoming less and less of an attractive option compared to ride-sharing.
It's also that ridesharing vehicles themselves cause some of the congestion as the double parking for pick up and drop off and the constant cruising waiting for customers ultimately adds to congestion.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:34 PM
 
187 posts, read 124,041 times
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I always thought it was strange that the trolleys stopped at city hall and not go all the way to the river. Probably too late to do any extension like that though, plus it kind of provides redundant service to the el. I heard somewhere that the broad street concourse from city hall to south was originally built to run trolleys. It'd be kind of useful to have them run there and come above ground and disperse into south Philly, similar to how the west Philly subway surface lines work. More heavy rail would be great, but I think we kind of missed the boat on that. I'd be happy with just the RB branch off the BSL and the extension to the Navy Yard. The KOP spur I think is important as well. Also always wished they used the city branch cut to do a spur out to the art museum/fairmount. Also, is there a reason we have 4 tracks for the BSL? It seems kind of a waste, but maybe it got more usage in the past. It seems like it would be more efficient branching out into NE and NW Philly. I think there used to be plans for a Chestnut Hill line as well as the blvd line that branched off the BSL.

I always thought the trolleys were great. When I lived in west Philly, they got me into center city in a matter of minutes. Sure they're not as fast as the el, but better than the bus or car. I live in CC now and still use them to get to west Philly. I don't really have any complaints. I think the plans to turn them into more of a light rail network will help improve them and of course the new cars. I've never used the Girard trolley so I can't really speak to that one, but it's pretty cool looking and when we have people visiting they always like seeing the vintage car. I think they should run them down the old Germantown ave line too; tourists would eat that up and their aren't many toursits on Girard other than at the zoo. They could probably run them down the city branch cut actually and connect to the existing Germantown line trolley tracks in Center City, then you have a decent tourist line hitting a lot of the museums/convention center. Still think a BSL spur would be better though, especially for residents. But since we're dreaming, why not both, it was built for 6 tracks I think.

As for the bus network, it is what it is. Buses definitely serve a purpose but I've never been on one in any city that I could say was efficient.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:00 PM
 
Location: West Philadelphia
75 posts, read 65,524 times
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The trolleys do need to be modernized to accommodate all riders, but it would be an absolute shame to lose them in favor of buses. The subway-surface aspect is hugely important, particularly to West and Southwest Philly. It's interesting when you consider a city like Portland's streetcar expansion. Why couldn't that be just as feasible here?
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:37 PM
 
10,787 posts, read 8,696,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjozac View Post
The trolleys do need to be modernized to accommodate all riders, but it would be an absolute shame to lose them in favor of buses. The subway-surface aspect is hugely important, particularly to West and Southwest Philly. It's interesting when you consider a city like Portland's streetcar expansion. Why couldn't that be just as feasible here?
They are supposed to replace the current subway surface fleet so they are ADA compliant.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,004 posts, read 8,871,978 times
Reputation: 10337
Quote:
Originally Posted by skintreesnail View Post
I always thought it was strange that the trolleys stopped at city hall and not go all the way to the river. Probably too late to do any extension like that though, plus it kind of provides redundant service to the el. I heard somewhere that the broad street concourse from city hall to south was originally built to run trolleys. It'd be kind of useful to have them run there and come above ground and disperse into south Philly, similar to how the west Philly subway surface lines work. More heavy rail would be great, but I think we kind of missed the boat on that. I'd be happy with just the RB branch off the BSL and the extension to the Navy Yard. The KOP spur I think is important as well. Also always wished they used the city branch cut to do a spur out to the art museum/fairmount. Also, is there a reason we have 4 tracks for the BSL? It seems kind of a waste, but maybe it got more usage in the past. It seems like it would be more efficient branching out into NE and NW Philly. I think there used to be plans for a Chestnut Hill line as well as the blvd line that branched off the BSL.
I don't know where you heard that the South Broad Street concourse was to have served as a trolley tunnel; that was never part of the 1913 plan that gave us the Broad Street Subway and Frankford Elevated.

The trolley tunnel was originally to have run all the way to the Delaware too; the Market Street subway in Center City would have provided "express" service, with only two stops east of City Hall.

Traffic on the Market Street line after the trolley subway was cut back to City Hall for cost and engineering reasons led city transit planners to recommend a 4-track subway for Broad Street; a second reason for the local/express configuration was because the Broad Street line was supposed to be the trunk of a tree with several branches - one to Germantown, another to the Northeast, a third to West Oak Lane. Those branches would probably have produced the traffic the 1913 A. Merritt Taylor plan predicted. (The Broad Street line was also supposed to run in a loop subway downtown that would have distributed traffic along the city's main axis of commerce. That loop got cut after work on the line was suspended in 1917 for lack of funds. So instead, it cuts across the axis, which may also have reduced traffic below envisioned levels. A spur line down Ridge Avenue to 8th and Market, later extended to 16th and Locust along part of the loop route, did serve as a partial collector-distributor, but it also never saw lots of traffic; the one station it serves exclusively - Chinatown (nee Race-Vine) - is the least-used station in the SEPTA rapid transit network.)

The express tracks ran only as far north as Girard from 1927 until the late 1960s, when they were installed as far north as Erie; the express tracks from there north didn't get installed until the Reading-side railroad embankment got shut down in late 1984 to rebuild its bridges.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:59 AM
 
2,041 posts, read 1,503,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skintreesnail View Post
More heavy rail would be great, but I think we kind of missed the boat on that.
Philly better catch the next damn boat then because this city won't survive without more heavy rail. Especially in the Southwest and Northeast.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:23 AM
 
187 posts, read 124,041 times
Reputation: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I don't know where you heard that the South Broad Street concourse was to have served as a trolley tunnel; that was never part of the 1913 plan that gave us the Broad Street Subway and Frankford Elevated.
I want to say some concourse history piece on hidden city or plan philly. It surprised me, which is why I remembered it. But then I think Park street station in Boston is kind of like that. I remember multiple tracks for the green line that you could just walk across in a cavernous space to get to whatever line you need. The Red line was in a tunnel below that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The trolley tunnel was originally to have run all the way to the Delaware too; the Market Street subway in Center City would have provided "express" service, with only two stops east of City Hall.
That makes a lot of sense after considering the stops west of city hall.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:40 AM
 
10,787 posts, read 8,696,484 times
Reputation: 3983
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
Yes, but rail hasn't seem the same decline as far as I'm aware. I'm guessing that people still consider taking the subway as a good option versus Uber/Lyft, while taking the bus is becoming less and less of an attractive option compared to ride-sharing.
Seniors, for example, can ride free on Septa. And women need to learn about the sexual assault problems with Lyft/Uber which has been kept under the radar. Big reason why I want to avoid both.

Then there's Lyft's class action lawsuit which claims the company misled investors going into their IPO. IPO price: $72. Now it's down to $54. Uber's IPO failed too.

I do think riding is here to stay though.
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