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Old 02-02-2021, 12:33 PM
 
Location: New York City
9,343 posts, read 9,210,037 times
Reputation: 6428

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Buh bye, y'all. If the city doesn't work for you anymore, you should leave. It's easier than ever to square the work thing (if you're lucky enough to have a WFH job).

They'll take me out of my apt in Old City when I die. Not a moment before.

Now, the politics that you mention that are the reason why you just can't stand it here are my politics ( yes, I'm a moderate democrat) so I'm not offended by them. But if yu're unable to see the beauty in Philly and the benefits of living as resident, you shouldn't be there.

It's not without it's compromises. I too, hate the trash thing. I've never understood how someone could choose to throw a pizza box on the ground, 4 feet away from a trash can. But i've watched it happen many times here. I've also seen it happen in the suburbs, BTW. Cpomp can attest, NYC is just as filthy as Philly. It's a city thing. Not a Philly thing.

Staying here makes no sense if you don't see the benefits of this town.
True, New York is known to be dirty, but doesn't get called out like Philadelphia, still don't know why...

I live right in Midtown and there is human poop and garbage everywhere on a daily basis.

But I agree, I love Philadelphia and crappy leadership wouldn't deter me from moving back, its more where my opportunities lie that keeps me up here for now.

I love some of the Philly burbs like Ardmore, but I feel like I would become a hermit if I moved to the burbs, and since I don't plan on having kids (just cats and dogs), its city life all the way for me. Just my mentality.
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Old 02-02-2021, 12:40 PM
 
10,583 posts, read 12,004,202 times
Reputation: 16726
Quote:
Staying here makes no sense if you don't see the benefits of this town.
I agree...unless a person cannot move because of their job, or finances, or whatever reason.

Other than proximity to events downtown, can you please point out some of the benefits a city resident has that someone who lives one block on the other side of the county line won't have??

I think such a list could be helpful....especially if it's a benefit not paid for in taxes. (Things paid for by taxes, like trash pick up, don't count, because while a resident's taxes may pay for trash pickup and a county resident may have to pay for private trash pick up -- both people still pay for it. So trash pick up really isn't a benefit of living in the city. That's a service paid for by taxes.

The list could be helpful ii pointing out things are are really benefits, from people THINK are benefits.
Thanks
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:37 PM
 
8,976 posts, read 21,064,360 times
Reputation: 3783
I've been back for a little over a year after 15 years away for professional and personal reasons. I've tried to keep up with happenings here and on other local media. I get the frustration about local government and the city is definitely no less filthy - or dare I say, "gritty" - than before I left. But odds are that I will be living in the city for the foreseeable future. I'm optimistic that the quality of life will improve as the pandemic lessens and diversions I enjoy open back up again. As someone who doesn't drive, I like being able to choose between walkable neighborhoods with decent-to-great transit access through much of the city. One could approximate this in the eastern Main Line or Jenkintown/Glenside but I think I'm at least ten years away (retirement-ish) from seriously those options.
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Old 02-02-2021, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
443 posts, read 405,666 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
I agree...unless a person cannot move because of their job, or finances, or whatever reason.

Other than proximity to events downtown, can you please point out some of the benefits a city resident has that someone who lives one block on the other side of the county line won't have??

I think such a list could be helpful....especially if it's a benefit not paid for in taxes. (Things paid for by taxes, like trash pick up, don't count, because while a resident's taxes may pay for trash pickup and a county resident may have to pay for private trash pick up -- both people still pay for it. So trash pick up really isn't a benefit of living in the city. That's a service paid for by taxes.

The list could be helpful ii pointing out things are are really benefits, from people THINK are benefits.
Thanks
Other people have pointed this out but it's a big one for some folks: walkability, bikeability, proximity to jobs, and amenities (stores, restaurants, etc.). The amount of access I have to those things (when it's not a pandemic, of course!) is second to none for just about anywhere in the country, aside from NYC.

Living in an outer neighborhood near the city line is a no-go for me. You're right - I'd just live in the suburbs. But CC/South Philly/Lower NE/West Philly all has that easy access to what I described above that is top notch.

In terms of $$, the amount of money I'd save on wage tax by living in the 'burbs would easily be eaten up by the amount of wear and tear on my car + gas + insurance. Living car-free in a city with easy access to jobs and amenities is a HUGE money saver. Seriously, what some of my friends in the burbs spend on transportation (car + gas + long ass uber rides) is insane. It's next to nothing for me except a SEPTA pass.

BTW, this is totally YMMV. I realize not everyone has the same experience as this. And some people outside Philly (or other major cities) literally can't imagine a lifestyle where they don't drive everywhere.
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Old 02-02-2021, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,764 posts, read 3,258,988 times
Reputation: 1939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
Other people have pointed this out but it's a big one for some folks: walkability, bikeability, proximity to jobs, and amenities (stores, restaurants, etc.). The amount of access I have to those things (when it's not a pandemic, of course!) is second to none for just about anywhere in the country, aside from NYC.

Living in an outer neighborhood near the city line is a no-go for me. You're right - I'd just live in the suburbs. But CC/South Philly/Lower NE/West Philly all has that easy access to what I described above that is top notch.

In terms of $$, the amount of money I'd save on wage tax by living in the 'burbs would easily be eaten up by the amount of wear and tear on my car + gas + insurance. Living car-free in a city with easy access to jobs and amenities is a HUGE money saver. Seriously, what some of my friends in the burbs spend on transportation (car + gas + long ass uber rides) is insane. It's next to nothing for me except a SEPTA pass.

BTW, this is totally YMMV. I realize not everyone has the same experience as this. And some people outside Philly (or other major cities) literally can't imagine a lifestyle where they don't drive everywhere.
Walkability is what I miss the most after leaving center city. I hate the fact when the wife tells me she needs a few things at the store, I have to jump in the car and drive to get it.
I did have a place in Manhattan that I shared with co-workers, but since Covid I gave that up as I mostly work out of my house. But once we get back to normalcy (one can only hope) I will be back in NYC a few days a week.
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Old 02-02-2021, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
8 posts, read 3,847 times
Reputation: 26
Default Interesting question

I think your question is a good one selhars. Adding to the list that others like bridge12 have shared, I think there's something to be said about living within communities that reflect at least a little bit of the world and people you want to support around you.

I totally hear and agree with the gripes against trash, the contented city government (including the feifdom-like set-up of council districts), and none-too-friendly attitude toward change, but I think there are quite a few things that keep me (and others) here.

One of them is the underlying sentiment that's (maybe?) implied in cpomp's comment about not wanting to be a hermit in the suburbs. There's a certain way that living in the city pushes you to learn through unexpected interactions, experiences, and differences that are hard to replicate in some more cloistered suburban spaces.

Connected to that are the people (artists, wanderers, aspirers, makers, connectors, etc.) who are drawn to closer proximity to others and to communal spaces they can walk into--or stumble out of--on the way home. There's public transportation and ways to be independent of automobile expenses (like bridge12 mentions), and there's access to acres and acres (and acres) of green spaces that are just a walk or bike-ride away.

Not to mention contributing to a way of living that can be more sustainable (in aggregate) than a hyper-individualized lot or plot might allow.

There are other things, but I think it's important to note that there are other components as well. Sensibility, tidiness, progressiveness, etc. are often in the eyes of the beholder. One person's sensibility might be another's suffocating homogeneity. One group's progressiveness might be another's virtue-signaling distraction from decisive actions that have positive material benefits for present and future generations. One person's expectations for tidiness might be another's imposing projection of personal standards.

These are all only examples, of course. TLDR YMMV, to each their own, and one person's trash may be another person's gritty treasure
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Old 02-02-2021, 07:26 PM
 
10,583 posts, read 12,004,202 times
Reputation: 16726
To the people who love the walkability of Philly, are you just talking about Center City? or any neighborhood that has certain amenities? In Center City or not....(And of course there's the separate discussion of what the boundaries of CC are.)

I ask because people who talk about walkability and proximity to things act like everything they're talking about is at a walkable distance (which of course various as to what is walkable for one person, another would think is too far).

If you live in certain parts of Philadelphia, yes, a grocery store is in walking distance. And yes, if you live in some parts of the city a pharmacy is in walking distance. But I don't know that even every neighborhood "river to river and Washington to Vine" has those things.

I'd choose Ardmore over Center City any day of the week. Clearly those of you you love living in town would not.

Sure, lots of people in the city walk to where they want to go. But a whole lot take an Uber/Lyft also. They may not OWN the car. But that doesn't mean they don't hire/rent/use one, even if it's just to get around in the city. So I don't know how convincing their "walkability" position is, if they Uber/Lyft everywhere they go.

Also, for me proximity can also be about time/convenience to run the errand. If a person in the suburbs and can drive to a CVS faster than a person who lives in the city could walk to a drug store or take Uber/Lyft to one .....then what does it matter about proximity.

Last edited by selhars; 02-02-2021 at 07:35 PM..
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Old 02-02-2021, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
443 posts, read 405,666 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
To the people who love the walkability of Philly, are you just talking about Center City? or any neighborhood that has certain amenities? In Center City or not....(And of course there's the separate discussion of what the boundaries of CC are.)

I ask because people who talk about walkability and proximity to things act like everything they're talking about is at a walkable distance (which of course various as to what is walkable for one person, another would think is too far).

If you live in certain parts of Philadelphia, yes, a grocery store is in walking distance. And yes, if you live in some parts of the city a pharmacy is in walking distance. But I don't know that even every neighborhood "river to river and Washington to Vine" has those things.

I'd choose Ardmore over Center City any day of the week. Clearly those of you you love living in town would not.

Sure, lots of people in the city walk to where they want to go. But a whole lot take an Uber/Lyft also. They may not OWN the car. But that doesn't mean they don't hire/rent/use one, even if it's just to get around in the city. So I don't know how convincing their "walkability" position is, if they Uber/Lyft everywhere they go.

Also, for me proximity can also be about time/convenience to run the errand. If a person in the suburbs and can drive to a CVS faster than a person who lives in the city could walk to a drug store or take Uber/Lyft to one .....then what does it matter about proximity.
I can't think of anywhere in the boundaries you define that isn't within a 10 minute walk to a pharmacy or grocery store. As a matter of fact, I would expand that Oregon to Girard and all the way west to 52nd street. That's about half the city's population right there.

As to your point about rideshares, yeah, lots of people in the city have public transit or walking at the fingertips and still take uber/lyft. It is what it is. But, taking a 10 minute uber to fishtown is a lot different than living in KOP and taking an uber to fishtown.

Regarding your last point, I can't imagine living somewhere that the pedestrian infrastructure is so poor that I couldn't simply walk to a grocery store or CVS. I'm a 5 minute walk from a grocery store and CVS right now. I'd much rather walk out the door to go to either then trudge out to my car, park in the lot, and drive back. It just seems like so much work after living where you can walk to places.

I like Ardmore and there are some things to walk to, for sure, but it doesn't have nearly the critical mass of the city. You can't just bop over to a different neighborhood for a new restaurant, shop, or bar. And that's okay if you prefer that. No judgment. The suburbs I do judge (haha) are places like KOP and Cherry Hill. Just endless sprawl where you can't walk anywhere without risking your life.

warmclay makes some excellent points! I concur.
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Old 02-02-2021, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
13,961 posts, read 8,825,433 times
Reputation: 10265
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmclay View Post
I think your question is a good one selhars. Adding to the list that others like bridge12 have shared, I think there's something to be said about living within communities that reflect at least a little bit of the world and people you want to support around you.

I totally hear and agree with the gripes against trash, the contented city government (including the feifdom-like set-up of council districts), and none-too-friendly attitude toward change, but I think there are quite a few things that keep me (and others) here.

One of them is the underlying sentiment that's (maybe?) implied in cpomp's comment about not wanting to be a hermit in the suburbs. There's a certain way that living in the city pushes you to learn through unexpected interactions, experiences, and differences that are hard to replicate in some more cloistered suburban spaces.

Connected to that are the people (artists, wanderers, aspirers, makers, connectors, etc.) who are drawn to closer proximity to others and to communal spaces they can walk into--or stumble out of--on the way home.
There's public transportation and ways to be independent of automobile expenses (like bridge12 mentions), and there's access to acres and acres (and acres) of green spaces that are just a walk or bike-ride away.

Not to mention contributing to a way of living that can be more sustainable (in aggregate) than a hyper-individualized lot or plot might allow.

There are other things, but I think it's important to note that there are other components as well. Sensibility, tidiness, progressiveness, etc. are often in the eyes of the beholder. One person's sensibility might be another's suffocating homogeneity. One group's progressiveness might be another's virtue-signaling distraction from decisive actions that have positive material benefits for present and future generations. One person's expectations for tidiness might be another's imposing projection of personal standards.

These are all only examples, of course. TLDR YMMV, to each their own, and one person's trash may be another person's gritty treasure
That's as good a description as I've read anywhere of the quality that I think distinguishes city living from life in even the best, most walkable suburbs (though some of these come close).

I describe it with this word: Serendipity.

It's the likelihood that, in the course of going about your everyday business, you will run into something or someone that you hadn't planned to see, do or find but are glad you did the moment you encounter that something or someone.

These sorts of chance encounters, these happy accidents, are much less frequent in the 'burbs. They might happen at a bar on Main Street, or at the local supermarket, but because most of the time, you're behind the wheel of a car, you don't even have a chance of just running into someone or something while you're on your way somewhere. That last opportunity is why walkability matters.
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Old 02-03-2021, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA.
5,714 posts, read 3,221,108 times
Reputation: 3122
Where????
They have gone up tremendously out in Montco.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport View Post
Yeah that all makes sense and those are certainly sound reasons for relocating. Best of luck where you end up. I will say one thing about the city that isn't mentioned much, and that is housing appreciation. Houses almost never go up in value in the burbs. They drop occasionally, or more frequently, stay pretty much static. If you buy a house for 350k in the burbs, in 10 years, it's probably going to be worth 350k. In the city on the other hand, you can double, triple or quadruple your value (or rent for a good deal over the mortgage). This allows one to expand a wealth footprint that can't be done simply by working and saving. This is a big one for me as I have no intention of working for the Man for the majority of my adult life.
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