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Which lines from my pay or BBMMs post, caused so much laughter and/or offense among your black friends?
These are the quotes in question from the three posts I read to them:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
the living conditions [in Philadelphia] are pretty harsh and substandard for most black people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
The neighborhoods and homes look shoddy, dirty, cramped and substandard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther
Philly is much better now, but BB is so correct that the housing stock looks like crap all over the city. It looks like housing being maintained by people who are barely making it. Houses falling down because people don't fix water leaks, leading to the missing tooth phenomenon in what are supposed to be row houses. Constant neglect and the houses just get older, and no one with real money is buying them and fixing them up, so it's a downward spiral with no end in sight. You just can't have these huge swaths of West, South, and North Philly, just becoming decrepit, and think that's a sign of a healthy city.
My one "friend" is in fact is my partner. He too is a transplant to the city. He's the one who laughed. We more so talked about how ridiculous it is to say the housing stock looks like crap all over the city. Like thedirtypirate said, to suggest it looks like North Central (and no offense intended toward the people who live there) all over the city is ludicrous. We also thought the second part of your paragraph was odd, JP, because you seem to suggest there is no development or revitalization/gentrification (however you might characterize what's happening in many neighborhoods) here.
My other friend is also a colleague with whom I work closely. She has lived in Philadelphia her entire life. She was offended by the substandard comment in particular, 1) because it really is an insensitive characterization of the lives of "most" black people here, 2) is statistically inaccurate (unless we are measuring "substandard" by some other qualifier than poverty levels, but again no other qualifiers have been given) and 3) erases the many happy working class and middle class black people of Philadelphia. It is one thing to say living conditions are substandard for too many black Philadelphians, and another thing to say it is substandard for most Philadelphians. It is an important distinction, and something my friend and I discussed.
These are the quotes in question from the three posts I read to them:
My one "friend" is in fact is my partner. He too is a transplant to the city. He's the one who laughed. We more so talked about how ridiculous it is to say the housing stock looks like crap all over the city. Like thedirtypirate said, to suggest it looks like North Central (and no offense intended toward the people who live there) all over the city is ludicrous. We also thought the second part of your paragraph was odd, JP, because you seem to suggest there is no development or revitalization/gentrification (however you might characterize what's happening in many neighborhoods) here.
My other friend is also a colleague with whom I work closely. She has lived in Philadelphia her entire life. She was offended by the substandard comment in particular, 1) because it really is an insensitive characterization of the lives of "most" black people here, 2) is statistically inaccurate (unless we are measuring "substandard" by some other qualifier than poverty levels, but again no other qualifiers have been given) and 3) erases the many happy working class and middle class black people of Philadelphia. It is one thing to say living conditions are substandard for too many black Philadelphians, and another thing to say it is substandard for most Philadelphians. It is an important distinction, and something my friend and I discussed.
Much of West, South, Southwest and even some lower Northeast Philadelphia all look shoddy crowded fam dated worn and harsh. The hardscape is off-putting to most too.
North Central looks ghastly.
Too many, most, It doesn’t really matter. Compared to places like ATL the DMV and Charlotte it’s all pretty damn bad. Not saying that most black Philadelphians aren’t happy or content-but they’re used to it and have other ties to the area that enrich their lives.
What you feel are redeveloped or gentrified nicer looking area still looks pretty scary to many many Americans-that’s a good part why Philly still has a real and the growth isn’t explosive but incremental.
Frankly 4:5 cities in the Bos-Wash corridor can’t be black destinations or Mecca’s because black people are generally leaving that area or it’s stagnant. There already NYC and DC. That leaves Phi Bos Bal. Boston is out for obvious reasons. And then there Bmore and Philly...both have terrible crime rates, poverty and poor housing conditions in large swaths of the black areas of the city. But at least Bmore has uniformly black political leadership, better COL, two HBCUS and a majority black populace.
Philly is bustling and urbane but not as much as NYC. It’s black but not as much as DC or Bmore. Even compared to Boston Philly’s black people are poorer, less educated, and the neighborhoods are much dirtier. It also attracts noticebly fewer black immigrants than NYC or Boston and maybe even DC..
My point in saying this is not to disparage Philly but rather explain some things and note that (as is often the case with Philadelphia) it struggles to differentiate itself from its peers.
To an extent it is a black mecca for sure. And it’s been able to maintain or grow it black population over the past 20 years. Something most major northern cities haven’t been able to do.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 06-10-2020 at 12:46 PM..
Much of West, South, Southwest and even some lower Northeast Philadelphia all look shoddy crowded fam dated worn and harsh. The hardscape is off-putting to most too.
North Central looks ghastly.
Too many, most, It doesn’t really matter. Compared to places like ATL the DMV and Charlotte it’s all pretty damn bad. Not saying that most black Philadelphians aren’t happy or content-but they’re used to it and have other ties to the area that enrich their lives.
What you feel are redeveloped or gentrified nicer looking area still looks pretty scary to many many Americans-that’s a good part why Philly still has a real and the growth isn’t explosive but incremental.
Frankly 4:5 cities in the Bos-Wash corridor can’t be black destinations or Mecca’s because black people are generally leaving that area or it’s stagnant. There already NYC and DC. That leaves Phi Bos Bal. Boston is out for obvious reasons. And then there Bmore and Philly...both have terrible crime rates, poverty and poor housing conditions in large swaths of the black areas of the city. But at least Bmore has uniformly black political leadership, better COL, two HBCUS and a majority black populace.
Philly is bustling and urbane but not as much as NYC. It’s black but not as much as DC or Bmore. Even compared to Boston Philly’s black people are poorer, less educated, and the neighborhoods are much dirtier. It also attracts noticebly fewer black immigrants than NYC or Boston and maybe even DC..
My point in saying this is not to disparage Philly but rather explain some things and note that (as is often the case with Philadelphia) it struggles to differentiate itself from its peers.
To an extent it is a black mecca for sure. And it’s been able to maintain or grow it black population over the past 20 years. Something most major northern cities haven’t been able to do.
Much of South Philadelphia does not fit those descriptors. Really, it just a good chunk of Gray's Ferry and maybe a few blocks of Point Breeze. In regards to West and North, sure, but clearly there are large swaths of both that are well kept and beautiful urban environments. In particular, Lower North Philly and the areas in and around University City. Southwest Philadelphia, sure. In fact there really isn't notable revitalization there at all.
Yet none of this warrants claiming "that the housing stock looks like crap all over the city." I could spell out all of the well kept sections and neighborhoods of the city, but given how often that is done on this forum, it would be a bit redundant.
I think the distinction between "too many" and "most" is in fact quite important. The two words really paint a different picture. 31 percent vs. 51 percent is of course a big number in a city like Philadelphia, and even bigger if one were to read the word "most" and assume beyond 51 percent. Specificity of language is important.
As for the rest, I am happy for you to have your opinion about why Philadelphia may or may not be a "Black Mecca." Just refrain from calling me "defensive" when I respond to your posts next time.
II think one reason why Philadelphia may rank high here compared to, say, Kansas City is because blacks make up a plurality of the residents of the city of Philadelphia as a whole; that's not the case in either Chicago or KC.
I posted figures a while back using Census tract data from Social Explorer (now behind a paywall) showing racial segregation in Chicago vs racial segregation in Philadelphia in the 1940s and 50s. Philly was not much Blacker than Chicago in 1940 (12.9% vs 8.2%).
The South Side of Chicago was heavily segregated then. From what I recall, there were dozens of Census tracts that were 98-99% Black. Philly's Black population was most intensely segregated in North Philly, but there were few Census tracts in the city where Blacks made up more than 70% of the population. That type of extreme racial (residential) segregation took a bit longer to develop in Philly. It wasn't until the 80s or 90s where we begin to see Philly look more like Chicago (and it still doesn't look quite like Chicago today in terms of residential segregation).
Knowing a few older Black people from Chicago, I've always gotten the sense that they inhabited an exclusively Black world. Growing up as a Black person in Philadelphia in the 60s and 70s was probably an experience closer to the one Spike Lee depicts in the Do The Right Thing.
I posted figures a while back using Census tract data from Social Explorer (now behind a paywall) showing racial segregation in Chicago vs racial segregation in Philadelphia in the 1940s and 50s. Philly was not much Blacker than Chicago in 1940 (12.9% vs 8.2%).
The South Side of Chicago was heavily segregated then. From what I recall, there were dozens of Census tracts that were 98-99% Black. Philly's Black population was most intensely segregated in North Philly, but there were few Census tracts in the city where Blacks made up more than 70% of the population. That type of extreme racial (residential) segregation took a bit longer to develop in Philly. It wasn't until the 80s or 90s where we begin to see Philly look more like Chicago (and it still doesn't look quite like Chicago today in terms of residential segregation).
One of the things that struck me about Philadelphia is that residential segregation here has more of a patchwork-quilt quality to it than in other large cities. Yes, there are large sections of the city, in particular the territory extending from Girard Avenue on the south to Cheltenham Avenue on the north from 7th to 33d streets plus West Oak Lane, that are just about exclusively African-American, but the more typical pattern is patches of all-black settlement punctuated by patches of not-all-black settlement, as with University City, Cedar Park and Cobbs Creek in West Philly or the more polyglot Point Breeze of today. And in some of those patches, like Mount Airy or Cedar Park, you will find a racial mosaic.
Such mosaics are all but impossible to find in the large older cities of the Midwest, including my own beloved Kansas City. Instead, you have the blacks on this side, everyone else on the other.
Too many, most, It doesn’t really matter. Compared to places like ATL the DMV and Charlotte it’s all pretty damn bad. Not saying that most black Philadelphians aren’t happy or content-but they’re used to it and have other ties to the area that enrich their lives.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare Philadelphia, which is over 250 years old, to newer cities like Charlotte and Atlanta let alone our nation's tiny, rapidly gentrifying capital whose region started exploding in population only thirty years ago.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare Philadelphia, which is over 250 years old, to newer cities like Charlotte and Atlanta let alone our nation's tiny, rapidly gentrifying capital whose region started exploding in population only thirty years ago.
No one said it's fair. What does "fair" have to do with anything?
Were you talking about what was "fair" when millions of white people abandoned cities for brand spanking new suburban towns? Taking their money with them that could have been used to maintain the housing stock?
Chicago may have had the same situation as Philly. Thankfully for them they had the great fire, which burned down and eliminated all the crap wooden houses in the center of the city, but also ushered in a desire to build houses out of brick, hence the miles of brick bungalows in Chicago. Brick equals "easier to maintain," even for lower income people, which means less obvious blight. It's not fair that Chicago got a clean slate to work with, but here we are.
Also, Boston is as old as Philly, and doesn't have nearly the blight problems. Even the triple decker areas are neat.
No one said it's fair. What does "fair" have to do with anything?
Were you talking about what was "fair" when millions of white people abandoned cities for brand spanking new suburban towns? Taking their money with them that could have been used to maintain the housing stock?
Chicago may have had the same situation as Philly. Thankfully for them they had the great fire, which burned down and eliminated all the crap wooden houses in the center of the city, but also ushered in a desire to build houses out of brick, hence the miles of brick bungalows in Chicago. Brick equals "easier to maintain," even for lower income people, which means less obvious blight. It's not fair that Chicago got a clean slate to work with, but here we are.
Also, Boston is as old as Philly, and doesn't have nearly the blight problems. Even the triple decker areas are neat.
In other conversations in this sub-forum, I've bemoaned the White flight in the middle of the last century, the reasons why it happened, and the racial covenants that prevented people of color and Jews from joining them. So we are in the same ballpark regarding that concern.
Atlanta burned down too during the Civil War so their most historic homes and properties are "young" too in comparison. A quick search just informed me that Charlotte is actually 252 years old! Nonetheless, their sprawling layout and being a relatively small city until thirty years ago allowed the city to manage their stock better.
I haven't been to Boston enough to offer much of a qualified response except to say that as the "capital of New England", it likely attracts more in-town wealth than Philly.
No need to pile on the black folks in Philly. The white people in Philly are poor also.
Check the per capita income of Philly, and you'll see why it's no mecca for anyone. Of course there are good jobs to be had for many, white and black, but in general Philly is just more poor than DC and Atlanta.
Philly is more like Baltimore. Unfortunately.
No, Philadelphia and Baltimore is dissimilar with the exception of row homes. Philadelphia is way more of a mini-NYC than it ever will be like Baltimore.
NYC and Philadelphia has similar diversity. Both cities have a Chinatown, both cities have large black populations, both cities have ethnic whites (Italians, Jews, Irish, Polish, etc.), and both cities have large Puerto Rican and Dominican populations. Baltimore can only claim to have a larger black concentration (over 60%), and a smaller ethnic white population. It's Latino and Asian populations are minuscule at the most.
Oh, and the fact that both Philadelphia and NYC flank the stat of NJ, with North Jersey being a part of the NYC area while South Jersey being a part of Philadelphia's orbit. Baltimore has absolutely no claim to NJ, and when people talk about the DMV area, it's referring to the DC are, not Baltimore!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNgFooCj
Something else you might not have thought about: Although Chicago had a peak black population of about 1,100,000 in 1970, that number has fallen to about 750,000 now. Philly's peak black population is right about what it is right now, about 690,000. Within 10 years, Philadelphia could overtake Chicago as the city with the highest black population outside New York for the first time in modern history. This would mostly be due continued decline in Chicago's Black population, rather than large increases in Philadelphia's.
It would be very astonishing considering that Chicago has traditionally be known as "the Second City" for almost a century due to Chicago being the second largest city (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_U...#City_rankings) from
1890 to 1980 when Los Angeles took the second city title from Chicago and nowadays, it looks like Houston is going to be number three if not by the end of 2020, someday within this decade since Houston has positive net growth while Chicago looks to reel into stagnancy and eventual population decline.
But even though the black population seems to increase, especially with rising Caribbean and African populations, I see the Latino populations from Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, and Brazil, Colombia, and Venezuela being way more robust in the next two decades, to the point where the black and Latino populations equal each other out, similar to NYC. I do however see the Mexican population declining because of the fact that many Mexicans in the city have come here illegally to be honest and if Trump were to be reelected (which is inevitable), the Mexican wave which hit the Northeast, will only be a memory, as many people who are either first generation Mexican-Americans or of Mexican descent born here will have no choice but to go back to Mexico.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther
I'm a native Philadelphian who "made it out of Philly," and I hate the accuracy of your post. The Philly I grew up in, 60s to 70s to 80s, was indeed grim. It was a hard place to grow up, it wasn't nurturing it was dog eat dog. Graffiti everywhere, dirty public transportation with significant crimes/muggings. There was no hip area even for whites - no Manayunk that anyone cared to go to, no Graduate Hospital, no Fishtiwn or Northern Liberties.
I still remember venturing into Fishtown as late as the 2000s and remember hardscrabble neighborhoods before the SugarHouse, the Piazza at Schmidt's, and many other projects were even thought of. Nowadays, they're considered the hottest neighborhoods in the city, if not America (hello South Beach, Venice, and Tribeca). The same grim days that you recalled from the 60s to no later than the 90s sounds just about the same as NYC when it suffered it's brief population decline starting in the 60s and ending in the 90s, with the nadir starting in 1980, when not just the city, but the state of NY suffered a population decline which led NY state only decline on record (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...te)#Population), resulting in the loss of a colossal five congressional seats in 1983. A decade prior, NY lost it's title to CA of being the largest state in the Union.
I'm still a booster to the city, however, even so, we do have our similarities. I still wish Philadelphia was more like a Chicago, a SF, or a Boston when it comes to retaining major businesses, as the city of Philadelphia has the highest business tax policies amongst major American cities, as well as a more efficient mass transit city, in which Philadelphia contracted it's old rail system thanks to SEPTA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_..._diesel_routes) while Chicago, the Bay Area, and Boston had continued running their commuter rail systems as a benefit for commuters who lived outside the city limits regardless of profit or loss. Finally, there's the American Commerce Center (https://www.facebook.com/dee.arch.18...15731316836153), which could've attracted another major employer to Philadelphia. It was the best chance to get this project off in 2008, but the city and state are practically peons to Comcast, and while the Schuylkill Yards proposal is fantastic, I'm not holding my breath for the final project, as I'm also wondering leaving the city, but I'm going overseas to paradise, not another American city!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther
When I got a chance to visit Boston in 85, that sealed it for me. I was gone and never returned except to visit family.
Wow!!! At the same year the MOVE bombings happened, huh? Sorry to hear that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther
Philly is much better now, but BB is so correct that the housing stock looks like crap all over the city. It looks like housing being maintained by people who are barely making it. Houses falling down because people don't fix water leaks, leading to the missing tooth phenomenon in what are supposed to be row houses. Constant neglect and the houses just get older, and no one with real money is buying them and fixing them up, so it's a downward spiral with no end in sight. You just can't have these huge swaths of West, South, and North Philly, just becoming decrepit, and think that's a sign of a healthy city.
I visit my home very often, and I could move back to Philly in a heartbeat. But just because I love my home doesn't mean I can't see its flaws, which are many.
While I can agree that the lack of upkeep is the reason why the housing stock looks like crap, I can also agree that I'm not in full accordance with the newer houses that are being erected in places like West Philly, and even places such as Kensington. Don't get me wrong, I like the never homes, but it has to be in a condition where the neighborhood is completely bombed out. Also, I don't like full displacement of people who had lived there for most of their lives, if not generations. I'd rather see South Philly remain Italian, Port Richmond remain mostly Polish, Kensington remain Puerto Rican and Dominican, and North Philly remain black, then see Philadelphia devolve into a SF, where there's no remnants of a stable ethnic neighborhood left!!!
Last edited by wanderer34; 06-11-2020 at 03:02 PM..
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