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Old 10-27-2020, 08:59 AM
 
6,128 posts, read 3,577,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
London is not the USA. Not even close. How many guns are on the street in London compared to US cities? Is the violent death toll there around the same rate as it is in Philly?

what do those questions have to do with disarming a single individual? You going to pretend that it isn't possible to subdue someone with a knife without fatally shooting them?
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
what do those questions have to do with disarming a single individual?
Easy. Surrounded by neighbors in a city that hates police where tons of illegal guns exist. Any chance that this continues and someone else gets involved? Hard to watch your back when an armed individual is pacing around aggressively with neighbors yelling. Who's to say he didn't have a gun on him as well?
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:03 AM
 
6,128 posts, read 3,577,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
Easy. Surrounded by neighbors in a city that hates police where tons of illegal guns exist. Any chance that this continues and someone else gets involved? Hard to watch your back when an armed individual is pacing around aggressively with neighbors yelling. Who's to say he didn't have a gun on him as well?

wait... you think if the police would have tased the suspect instead of shooting them, it would have put them in more danger?


Wow.


30 officers were hurt last night. You think more would have been if they would have tased him? Sorry, but that is a delusional train of thought.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:15 AM
 
141 posts, read 36,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
wait... you think if the police would have tased the suspect instead of shooting them, it would have put them in more danger?


Wow.


30 officers were hurt last night. You think more would have been if they would have tased him? Sorry, but that is a delusional train of thought.
For a couple of officers repeating to get on the ground and put down the weapon, sure. They are in fight/flight mode at that point and not sure what this person, or any of the people around them are going to do. It's basic survival instincts. For someone like you, who is using hindsight from the comfort of their home, it does not make sense. But then again, that's what you and others are doing. Minimal context, no ability to understand the situation from the police perspective, and reconstructing "what should have been done". Life does not work that way.

I think people like you should spend a week with the police patrolling the streets of North and West Philly, responding to calls out of the car, on foot. Get a feel for what it's like from the police perspective.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:22 AM
 
6,128 posts, read 3,577,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
For a couple of officers repeating to get on the ground and put down the weapon, sure. They are in fight/flight mode at that point and not sure what this person, or any of the people around them are going to do. It's basic survival instincts. For someone like you, who is using hindsight from the comfort of their home, it does not make sense. But then again, that's what you and others are doing. Minimal context, no ability to understand the situation from the police perspective, and reconstructing "what should have been done". Life does not work that way.

I think people like you should spend a week with the police patrolling the streets of North and West Philly, responding to calls out of the car, on foot. Get a feel for what it's like from the police perspective.
Even the suggestion that there could be another way is met with paragraphs of straw man stories of survival instincts.

Ghetto police violence is ingrained in the blood of a lot of Americans.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:29 AM
 
141 posts, read 36,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
Even the suggestion that there could be another way is met with paragraphs of straw man stories of survival instincts.

Ghetto police violence is ingrained in the blood of a lot of Americans.
It's not a strawman. It is a FACT. When someone is scared, their body is pumped with adrenaline. Their senses narrow to fight or flight. Their ability to reason about the bigger picture is pushed to the back of their mind. They then decide to either run to save their lives, which the police are really not supposed to do unless they cannot handle the situation, OR they have to choose the most certain way to survive.

There are better ways to handle all of this, which is something that has to be re-architected by our leaders. I'm not against having mental health issues being handled by non-police authorities/specialists. I'm also not against non-lethal approaches. But what CANNOT be done is to expect change on the streets before a more strategic approach is taken. The cops on the street TODAY are dealing with the current reality (anti-cop, super violent streets, tons of illegal guns, gangs, ignorance, neighborhoods with a lack of education who are angry). They aren't going to reach for their tasers (which really don't work very well in many scenarios, certainly not well with armed, fast moving individuals) when they are dealing with a life/death situation.

Does that make sense?
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:51 AM
 
6,128 posts, read 3,577,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
It's not a strawman. It is a FACT. When someone is scared, their body is pumped with adrenaline. Their senses narrow to fight or flight. Their ability to reason about the bigger picture is pushed to the back of their mind. They then decide to either run to save their lives, which the police are really not supposed to do unless they cannot handle the situation, OR they have to choose the most certain way to survive.

There are better ways to handle all of this, which is something that has to be re-architected by our leaders. I'm not against having mental health issues being handled by non-police authorities/specialists. I'm also not against non-lethal approaches. But what CANNOT be done is to expect change on the streets before a more strategic approach is taken. The cops on the street TODAY are dealing with the current reality (anti-cop, super violent streets, tons of illegal guns, gangs, ignorance, neighborhoods with a lack of education who are angry). They aren't going to reach for their tasers (which really don't work very well in many scenarios, certainly not well with armed, fast moving individuals) when they are dealing with a life/death situation.

Does that make sense?

No I don't think much of your writing makes much sense outside of the need for more training for the police. The idea that police in Philly have no idea about non-lethal de-escalation tactics is not true.



I have a feeling we aren't going to agree, so you can continue to root for the police to shoot people and riots to start. I will continue to write and say that non-lethal ways need to be found when a mother is standing next to the officer screaming not to shoot.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:30 AM
 
8,254 posts, read 18,964,963 times
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Regarding the reason why a Taser gun wasn't used, Fox29's Steve Keeley offered a theory this morning.

According to him, to train an officer on how to use a Taser takes them off the streets for two weeks. Then there is the affordability of purchasing the devices. He pointed at NJ Governor Phil Murphy who vetoed a bill that would have required every police department to purchase Taser because he felt some municipalities wouldn't have been able to afford it.

Now, while both of those things may have been true, there is not yet any clarity about whether the officers involved in yesterday's shooting actually had Tasers at their disposal. It would also be beneficial to know what percentage of Philly PD officers have been trained to use them.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:42 AM
 
8,254 posts, read 18,964,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXPHILLY View Post
oh, and you were on the scene in the middle of the chaos with a crazed man coming at you, a police officer, with a knife. why not just have a social worker handle it like the ban the police lefties demand.
On the continuum of situations where a social worker and/or a police officer could have been involved, this tragedy was one where the presence of the former could have mitigated the necessity of the latter to choose a lethal resolution.

There's also a continuum between people who really want no police involved in community affairs to those who want to redirect some funding towards nonviolent solutions. But you probably already knew that.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:00 AM
 
786 posts, read 382,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FindingZen View Post
On the continuum of situations where a social worker and/or a police officer could have been involved, this tragedy was one where the presence of the former could have mitigated the necessity of the latter to choose a lethal resolution.

There's also a continuum between people who really want no police involved in community affairs to those who want to redirect some funding towards nonviolent solutions. But you probably already knew that.
The mental health issues need to be addressed well before this type of incident takes place. You're not gonna find too many psycholgists that are going to want to answer a police radio saying "grab your notebook and your tweed coat with the elbow patches and meet us at 52nd and Market. Theres a domestic violence incident and the dude is crazy and carrying a knife."

You can talk about redistributing police funds all you want - and I'm absolutely certain funds can be way better spent than how they are currently - but better police training and escalation policies are the first things to address. This dude shouldn't have been shot 14 times. Train a cop to take him out at the legs if you need to stop him. Choke holds need t be banned. Until the directive is put out that perps need to be detained and lethal force is the last resort, and then cops are trained on those tools, this problem will continue.

For christ sake, stop using the term "defund." It stops the discussion dead in it's tracks.

- No choke holds
- Non-lethal tactics to stop threats
- Preemptive health services with incentives to clients who take advantage
- Mandatory non-paid leave to cops with violations
- Body cams 100% of the time. Suspension on 1st violation

Seems like a reasonable start.

We also need to get weed rescheduled (out of sched 1) and double drug trafficking penalties for sched 1 drugs. There needs to be some deterrent to entering that industry.
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