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Old 10-27-2020, 11:11 AM
 
8,251 posts, read 18,944,443 times
Reputation: 3088

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
The mental health issues need to be addressed well before this type of incident takes place. You're not gonna find too many psycholgists that are going to want to answer a police radio saying "grab your notebook and your tweed coat with the elbow patches and meet us at 52nd and Market. Theres a domestic violence incident and the dude is crazy and carrying a knife."

You can talk about redistributing police funds all you want - and I'm absolutely certain funds can be way better spent than how they are currently - but better police training and escalation policies are the first things to address. This dude shouldn't have been shot 14 times. Train a cop to take him out at the legs if you need to stop him. Choke holds need t be banned. Until the directive is put out that perps need to be detained and lethal force is the last resort, and then cops are trained on those tools, this problem will continue.

For christ sake, stop using the term "defund." It stops the discussion dead in it's tracks.

- No choke holds
- Non-lethal tactics to stop threats
- Preemptive health services with incentives to clients who take advantage
- Mandatory non-paid leave to cops with violations
- Body cams 100% of the time. Suspension on 1st violation

Seems like a reasonable start.

We also need to get weed rescheduled (out of sched 1) and double drug trafficking penalties for sched 1 drugs. There needs to be some deterrent to entering that industry.
I don't know know what kind of self-defense training if any that Behavior Health Unit were given. Certainly it will be a specialized job that the average PhD recipient would want to pursue. It would probably appeal more to MSWs/LCSWs.

I don't disagree with you that police would benefit from being trained differently. IMO why can't we both: retrain police while adding unarmed social workers.

I'm otherwise in agreement with everything you say. I don't know if doubling penalties for schedule 1 drugs will be so much of a deterrent. In an environment where there is already little hope for gainful employment, dealing drugs will only become a higher-risk/higher-reward occupation.
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:07 PM
 
130 posts, read 34,760 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
No I don't think much of your writing makes much sense outside of the need for more training for the police. The idea that police in Philly have no idea about non-lethal de-escalation tactics is not true.



I have a feeling we aren't going to agree, so you can continue to root for the police to shoot people and riots to start. I will continue to write and say that non-lethal ways need to be found when a mother is standing next to the officer screaming not to shoot.
Where did I say Philly police have no training on non-lethal de-escalation tactics? I am saying I'd advocate for more of it where necessary, but that is it. My point all along is that it is easy for people like you to be upset at the officers while sitting behind your computer and that you are not in touch with the real world on the streets in a heightened situation. The police are flawed humans like all of us, but I'd start by trusting their judgment until a more detailed assessment of the situation is performed, rather than from your immediate judgment and outrage.

The second paragraph is complete nonsense. You're clearly emotional and not making sense. I am absolutely against police shooting people unnecessarily. But you can't have a one-sided judgment. The state of these neighborhoods and the real world dangers of the job are a big part of this issue.
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:13 PM
 
130 posts, read 34,760 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
The mental health issues need to be addressed well before this type of incident takes place. You're not gonna find too many psycholgists that are going to want to answer a police radio saying "grab your notebook and your tweed coat with the elbow patches and meet us at 52nd and Market. Theres a domestic violence incident and the dude is crazy and carrying a knife."

You can talk about redistributing police funds all you want - and I'm absolutely certain funds can be way better spent than how they are currently - but better police training and escalation policies are the first things to address. This dude shouldn't have been shot 14 times. Train a cop to take him out at the legs if you need to stop him. Choke holds need t be banned. Until the directive is put out that perps need to be detained and lethal force is the last resort, and then cops are trained on those tools, this problem will continue.

For christ sake, stop using the term "defund." It stops the discussion dead in it's tracks.

- No choke holds
- Non-lethal tactics to stop threats
- Preemptive health services with incentives to clients who take advantage
- Mandatory non-paid leave to cops with violations
- Body cams 100% of the time. Suspension on 1st violation

Seems like a reasonable start.

We also need to get weed rescheduled (out of sched 1) and double drug trafficking penalties for sched 1 drugs. There needs to be some deterrent to entering that industry.
Pretty reasonable assessment. However, "shooting someone in the legs" is not a real world solution. Cops only discharge their weapons as a last resort (or so they should) and it's to stop the situation with deadly force. Maybe in some cases it wouldn't be lethal, we would hope. However, you never ask a cop to "shoot for the leg" like a Lethal Weapon movie.

Now, I think shooting 14 times is certainly excessive....to me sitting behind my computer. It takes a ton of adrenaline and fear to shoot someone the way they did. In that case, 14 times probably added up a lot faster than their human minds could account for. Doesn't excuse it, but cops are humans too.

Not sure where I stand on choke-holds. Anyone here a cop who has had to use one? Can we really get good cops who are not willing to use them (or be held criminally viable for even employing one) when they are a tool in life/death struggles?
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
3,486 posts, read 1,866,739 times
Reputation: 11967
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
Easy. Surrounded by neighbors in a city that hates police where tons of illegal guns exist. Any chance that this continues and someone else gets involved? Hard to watch your back when an armed individual is pacing around aggressively with neighbors yelling. Who's to say he didn't have a gun on him as well?
Then don't become a cop. seriously, and I'm from a family of NYC police officers.

If you as a cop are going to play 50 questions about every suspect, then policing is not the job for you. So how far do we take it? do we shoot to kill all suspect because they MIGHT have a gun?

who says he did have a gun? You don't get to kill someone on "maybe, perhaps, ifa-coulda-woulda".


We use to train a cop to shoot as the last resort and only when their lives were in mortal danger. from the video and I fully recognize that there may have been some thing going on that we missed but from the video tape, no cops lives were anywhere near in danger.

Last edited by eliza61nyc; 10-27-2020 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
3,486 posts, read 1,866,739 times
Reputation: 11967
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovephilly79 View Post
Pretty reasonable assessment. However, "shooting someone in the legs" is not a real world solution. Cops only discharge their weapons as a last resort (or so they should) and it's to stop the situation with deadly force. Maybe in some cases it wouldn't be lethal, we would hope. However, you never ask a cop to "shoot for the leg" like a Lethal Weapon movie.

Now, I think shooting 14 times is certainly excessive....to me sitting behind my computer. It takes a ton of adrenaline and fear to shoot someone the way they did. In that case, 14 times probably added up a lot faster than their human minds could account for. Doesn't excuse it, but cops are humans too.

Not sure where I stand on choke-holds. Anyone here a cop who has had to use one? Can we really get good cops who are not willing to use them (or be held criminally viable for even employing one) when they are a tool in life/death struggles
?
Not a cop but practice martial arts. the problem with choke holds is that most people do not know how to administer them correctly. After the Eric Garner debacle it was found out the NYC police force trained the officers in choke holds for the ridiculous sum of 1 day (I believe that has been changed). I know Sabum's ( taekwan do) that don't do it and they have been practicing the arts for decades.

sorry but lately policing in this country has become more like military or gestapo agents that police officers. there is a huge difference. now I think there are a lot of issues causing this but I'm not buying this "they are humans" too excuse.

cops nowadays use excessive force for every single thing. maybe that's why they are hated. any time you have community after community across the nation hating cops there is a problem. and the more we give excuses for it, the worst it will become
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:47 PM
 
589 posts, read 520,058 times
Reputation: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
Then don't become a cop. seriously, and I'm from a family of NYC police officers.

If you as a cop going to play 50 questions about every suspect then policing is not the job for you. So how far do we take it? do we shoot to kill all suspect because they MIGHT have a gun?

who says he did have a gun? You don't get to kill someone on "maybe, perhaps, ifa-coulda-woulda".


We use to train a cop to shoot as the last resort and only when their lives were in mortal danger. from the video and I fully recognize that there may have been some thing going on that we missed but from the video tape, no cops lives were anywhere near in danger.
Why do you think their lives were not in danger? Why don't you think they were at risk of being stabbed? That certainly would have been how I would have felt had I been in that situation.

I do think this case should cause us to reevaluate some policies; as I understand it police now are trained to shoot to kill and to shoot as many times as necessary to eliminate a threat. That seems to be what happened here and here it seems to be a policy that should be reconsidered. My hunch, however, is that the debate will be focused on whether the officers get changed with anything (manslaughter?) vs questioning the training they received.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 10-28-2020 at 06:57 AM.. Reason: removed the trump comment - hijacking thread
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Old 10-27-2020, 02:05 PM
 
130 posts, read 34,760 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
Then don't become a cop. seriously, and I'm from a family of NYC police officers.

If you as a cop are going to play 50 questions about every suspect, then policing is not the job for you. So how far do we take it? do we shoot to kill all suspect because they MIGHT have a gun?

who says he did have a gun? You don't get to kill someone on "maybe, perhaps, ifa-coulda-woulda".


We use to train a cop to shoot as the last resort and only when their lives were in mortal danger. from the video and I fully recognize that there may have been some thing going on that we missed but from the video tape, no cops lives were anywhere near in danger.
No one is saying they should have shot because he could have had a gun. They did shoot because their repeated plea for the man to stop and put down the weapon was not being followed. I would think you would see that coming from a family of NYC police officers. Any police officers running around with their weapons drawn while a whole host of people are yelling and a man with a knife is acting aggressively and approaching quickly is a serious threat.

And ANY cop that has been in the field for more than 15 minutes knows there is always a threat of someone having a gun, especially in the USA. That doesn't mean you just shoot, but it is a very big reason someone gets shot by the police when instructions are not being followed and uncertainty/risk is high.

Btw, "then don't become a cop" is not logical. All sorts of people are going to become cops. Good, bad, those with good expectations of the job, those with poor expectations of the job, those with good discretion, those with poor discretion. The point of all of this discussion, from my perspective, is that we have to be realistic NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT WE WANT, but about the reality of these situations from all perspectives. You may say someone should not be a cop, but they are. Cops need training, direction, tools, management, and support to do their job well. The situations they are in warp all of those things once they are in the field. If they are in a low-crime, leafy suburb with not much crime, you can expect them to have a different perspective than someone patrolling Alleghany on the night shift. Those two realities are very different. And our expectations of these police need to be realistic. That's why overly-simplistic solutions from protesters and others are not likely to solve the problems. They may just result in less good cops, and at the very least, a less effective police force with fast-rising crime.

And all of this social-media justice is terrible. You and I are not able to properly judge this situation. Someone with all of the facts, perspectives and details needs to sit down, present the evidence and then make sound judgement.
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Old 10-27-2020, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
3,486 posts, read 1,866,739 times
Reputation: 11967
Quote:
Originally Posted by KansastoSouthphilly View Post
Why do you think their lives were not in danger? Why don't you think they were at risk of being stabbed? That certainly would have been how I would have felt had I been in that situation.

I do think this case should cause us to reevaluate some policies; as I understand it police now are trained to shoot to kill and to shoot as many times as necessary to eliminate a threat. That seems to be what happened here and here it seems to be a policy that should be reconsidered. My hunch, however, is that the debate will be focused on whether the officers get changed with anything (manslaughter?) vs questioning the training they received.

Edit to add: Also looting right now right before the election is a great way to motivate trumps base and get him reelected.
Again just from the video, it did not appear if anyone was in immediate danger.
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Old 10-27-2020, 03:15 PM
 
130 posts, read 34,760 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
OMG, totally agree. I think one of the problems is that we don't get the " best" candidates. We get the individual that has the most money and the parties backing
It's definitely a party problem. Can't get in unless one of the two parties are backing you. Selling your soul to the party is required. And all other parties are deemed as extremists.
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:56 PM
 
4,259 posts, read 3,899,345 times
Reputation: 3572
When a deranged individual poses clear and imminent danger to other innocent individuals, not to mention the LE, I prefer him/her to be taken down whichever way quick and easy with minimal risk to the LE, before he/she has a chance to hurt others. Police brutality gets justified easily when the LE has to handle non-compliant and dangerous thugs.

If a police hurts/kills a compliant, non-dangerous man/woman, I will be the first to join the protests/riots.

I don't understand why people choose to support violent, dangerous, non-compliant thugs over and again who don't deserve to live with peace-/safety-loving citizens.

If you haven't learned to comply with LE after so many shooting accidents, you are responsible for your own death. I hope Philly doesn't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for the thug's death again...

Last edited by toobusytoday; 10-28-2020 at 07:14 AM.. Reason: removed spaces for easier reading
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