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The city of Philadelphia just released its 2045 transit plan. It seemed very ambitious and was interesting to look at. I wanted to know what other people thought about it.
Some things that caught my attention:
4.2-4.3:
- PATCO Speedline extension to University City
- New Silver Line on SEPTA Regional Rail track from Fern Rock to Penn Medicine
- Higher frequencies on regional rail
- Regional Rail will be split into two types: Frequent Regional Rail and Regional Express Service
- PHL International Airport People Mover
- Eastwick Trolley extension to PHL
- BSL Northwest and Southward extension, BRT and LRT are also being considered
- Phoenixville and West Chester may get Regional Rail
- Delaware Avenue LRT
- Centennial District Trolley
2.2
- Possible Fare System Redesign
There is a lot more interesting stuff in this plan, and I recommend that you go through it if you have the time to do so.
Last edited by SEPennsylvanian; 02-23-2021 at 05:53 PM..
Reason: Spelling mistakes
Seems like the proposal is more smoke and mirrors for those looking for better service in the city.
As announced today, SEPTA will waste $40 million of the PPP Covid relief money on the white elephant project to KOP.
I personally couldn’t be more against a rail extension to a mall parking lot. On their FAQ, the first sentence says “providing a one seat ride to KOP from Philadelphia. Literally building a train so poor people can play ******* running across a highway to their minimum wage job. Absolutely no professional in Philadelphia will take that train to the parking lot and take what I would assume be another bus to an office. Considering SEPTA said it was losing a million a day on COVID, it’s disturbing that the first moment they get, they announce this “rich get richer” project.
^^^ I agree, the KOP extension is a horrible waste of money, especially considering what it gets you; a one-ticket ride to one of the least pedestrian-friendly towns in the region I can think of. KOP was built for cars; you would need to reconstruct the entire town to make it anything else. Meanwhile, Norristown, the county seat that is a mile away, already has regional rail AND the NHSL. Maybe businesses looking for something pedestrian friendly with transit access should look here.
The vision the city puts forward, whether or not it's smoke and mirrors, is so much more complete and useful for the region as a whole. The $2b price tag for the KOP extension would cover the entire trolley modernization project. The OTIS report goes on about how much it will cost transforming RR into something more like a metro...will $2b help? How about the age-long dream of transit on Roosevelt blvd? Even the extension of the BSL to the navy yard, which is infinitely more walkable than KOP, would cost less and always gets panned as an expensive boondoggle.
Let's be clear. The KOP rail project is awful and needs to die. But there is a LOT to like in this transit plan. Emphasizing frequency over price, dedicated bus lanes, PATCO extension. All really good stuff.
^^^ I agree, the KOP extension is a horrible waste of money, especially considering what it gets you; a one-ticket ride to one of the least pedestrian-friendly towns in the region I can think of. KOP was built for cars; you would need to reconstruct the entire town to make it anything else. Meanwhile, Norristown, the county seat that is a mile away, already has regional rail AND the NHSL. Maybe businesses looking for something pedestrian friendly with transit access should look here.
The vision the city puts forward, whether or not it's smoke and mirrors, is so much more complete and useful for the region as a whole. The $2b price tag for the KOP extension would cover the entire trolley modernization project. The OTIS report goes on about how much it will cost transforming RR into something more like a metro...will $2b help? How about the age-long dream of transit on Roosevelt blvd? Even the extension of the BSL to the navy yard, which is infinitely more walkable than KOP, would cost less and always gets panned as an expensive boondoggle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12
Let's be clear. The KOP rail project is awful and needs to die. But there is a LOT to like in this transit plan. Emphasizing frequency over price, dedicated bus lanes, PATCO extension. All really good stuff.
I couldn't agree with both of you. There is smart things in the city's proposal. I just think it's crazy that SEPTA's GM got on NBC10 all pouty faced a few months ago and said hard choices would have to be made because SEPTA is losing $1 million dollars a day and then they take the loan money and throw it away at this monstrosity, it is just unbelievable. The BSL expansion would actually help people and communities that need help. It's more environmentally friendly, its more socially equitable, and it makes more business sense for the ENTIRE region (and not just a few wealthy land owners around the King of Prussia Mall). Having a healthy Philadelphia is so much more vital than adding another cultural less office park in one of the only areas that is already adding lots of new development in the suburbs.
The last fare system redesign mostly took everything that already existed and put it onto SEPTA Key. The Fare system redesign (which is more like a major upgrade) proposed by the city that makes transit more affordable and accessible to low income families, makes the system less confusing, and makes fare systems throughout the Delaware Valley more integrated.
On Page 73 it shows the city's recommendations, while section 2.2 as a whole shows examples from other cities and goes more in depth about what SEPTA, PATCO, and NJ Transit should do to achieve the vision.
Page 73:
The City recommends that SEPTA develop a plan for a more equitable fare policy that includes:
• Low-income transit pass program in coordination with state and regional funding partners
• Restructured weekly pass that lasts seven days from activation and a similarly structured monthly pass, and investigate a fare capping program
•University pass program in coordination with local universities
The City recommends that SEPTA, PATCO, and NJT work towards an open fare collection system that includes:
• Accepting contactless payment technology
• Allowing third-party vendors to sell fares via mobile apps
• Increasing the number of physical third-party vendors throughout the region
• Incorporating universal design principles at SEPTA Key readers, e.g. showing the remaining balance when paying fare
• Improving the SEPTA Key by reevaluating the need for a debit card feature in order to eliminate the need for the card to expire
I have not read the article but alot of what seems to be spoken about has been talked about for awhile. I am for the KOP extension. Traffic on 76/476 is horrible. Routes 123,124, and 125 take that way to KOP it does add time for the trip so i can see why the Norristown High Speed Line would be a answer. The owners of King Of Prussia love it because they can get people into their mall frequently.
***I am for the PATCO extension. That should have happened years ago, and with Center City expanding west into University City that would be a big plus.
***Extension to West Chester is very possible, a conference was held about two years ago in that area about the railroad returning there, and most people was for it. The same line is also being extended to Middletown (WaWa) which will be finished sometime next year. I think there is a chance for West Chester to come back to the Media/Elwyn Line.
***SEPTA KEY needs to constantly get it together....SEPTA is working on the upgrades for the validators for the vehicles to be able to take ApplePay, Samsung Pay, and etc.....should have happened yesteryear.
***Trolley Extension to Eastwick Regional Rail Station....I do not support this. For one the route overlapping is ridiculous. The 36 trolley connects with the 37 @ Lindbergh Blvd/Island Ave and the 37 goes by Eastwick if i remember or down the street. Same as the 108 bus connects with the 36 @65th / Elmwood, and again at 73rd/Elmwood ...both those buses connect to the regional rail at the airport.
***Frequent Regional Rail service , I am all for it. Sometimes 30mins-1hr or now every 2-3 Hours (Covid Schedule) is a bit crazy. I think the railroad running every 15-20 minutes would be fine on some lines not all , based on ridership trends. That would have to be studied and SEPTA would have to promote that type of frequent service to let the public know whats going on.
Seems like the proposal is more smoke and mirrors for those looking for better service in the city.
As announced today, SEPTA will waste $40 million of the PPP Covid relief money on the white elephant project to KOP.
I personally couldn’t be more against a rail extension to a mall parking lot. On their FAQ, the first sentence says “providing a one seat ride to KOP from Philadelphia. Literally building a train so poor people can play ******* running across a highway to their minimum wage job. Absolutely no professional in Philadelphia will take that train to the parking lot and take what I would assume be another bus to an office. Considering SEPTA said it was losing a million a day on COVID, it’s disturbing that the first moment they get, they announce this “rich get richer” project.
There are some Issues with the NHSL spur to KofP, but IMO the biggest one isn't what you say above (you're off on some of the details, and I'll get to those in a minute) but rather this:
The line will stop about one-half mile short of the one recent development in the King of Prussia area that was built to be transit-friendly, namely, the Village at Valley Forge.
WMATA had the good sense to place a Silver Line stop next to the Instant Urbanist town-center development just beyond Tysons proper. (And it may be that the developer of that project chose its site because it knew the Silver Line was coming. The 100 spur will end at First Avenue and North Gulph Road, next to the casino-hotel. A left turn and a few million more cubic yards of concrete and the line would go right to the Village's shopping center.
Which brings me to one of the details you're off on: The line will follow First Avenue, the main drag through the office park, to its end, and there's supposed to be a stop in the middle of the office park as well as the casino. So most of the office workers wouldn't be transferring to a bus at all.
In addition, the line will run through the King of Prussia Mall parking lot rather than across Mall Boulevard from it, so there's no playing ******* for the riders. Also this: Simon plans to add housing to the complex, either on the site of the vacant former JCPenney or closer to the edge of the property. Chances are they might add some next to one of the two stations serving the mall, given the space available next to where the Plaza-side station would be.
The line will most definitely not provide a one-seat ride from Philadelphia to the mall, as it will require a transfer at 69th Street Terminal for every Philadelphian who rides it. But — as Sammy215267 accurately points out — it will offer a more reliable trip between Center City and KofP. I don't know how many of you have ridden the 124/125 pair, but I've ridden them often enough to know that (a) their running time from Valley Forge or Chesterbrook and KofP to Center City varies dramatically depending on traffic and time of day, and it's longest at the peak commuter hours (b) most of those riding it work at the mall, and those who don't work there are largely less-affluent residents headed there to shop. I'd wager that first group would gladly switch to the train even with the transfer (and with the first transfer free now for SEPTA Key users, there's less of a fare penalty, or even none for those living near the rapid transit lines) simply because it would eliminate the possibility of being late for work because the bus got stopped in traffic (b) some people who do have a choice would take it to the mall to shop too, adding to its patronage.
So no, I don't think it's a total waste of money either. I'd rather see the BSLX to the Navy Yard get built sooner and the Northeast Spur (Boulevard) subway dusted off (which I don't think this plan envisions), but this line does hold the potential to reshape land use in KofP in a positive direction in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog
Possible fare system redesign?
Didn't the last one take like 7 years?
As another poster noted, that "redesign" changed nothing about the fare structure or discounted fare offerings — just the medium for fare payment. The plan calls for something more sweeping. Right now, I'm cheering inside to learn that it envisions SEPTA switching to passes timed not according to the calendar but from date of first use and that it also calls for a cap on the number of trips a rider would have to pay for (frankly, even though very few riders hit the ceilings now in place, I still object in principle to the trip caps SEPTA now places on its "unlimited-ride" passes, a policy born of SEPTA's fear that somewhere, someone is sharing a pass with someone else and depriving it of revenue. I am, however, aware that the "office pass" was indeed a Thing. But since those passes were usually used so that employees who didn't use transit themselves could use it to run errands during the workday. I don't get why SEPTA was that upset about that practice: it made riders out of non-riders).
I also think that it shouldn't require a 25-year transit plan to retool the Key hardware so that it shows how much one has left on their Key card (cash balance or number of trips) when they tap it against the reader.
There are some Issues with the NHSL spur to KofP, but IMO the biggest one isn't what you say above (you're off on some of the details, and I'll get to those in a minute) but rather this:
The line will stop about one-half mile short of the one recent development in the King of Prussia area that was built to be transit-friendly, namely, the Village at Valley Forge.
I did a fair amount of reading on this subject yesterday and read your article about this topic from a couple years ago lol.. When I read that point all I could think was who cares? You literally mention all the reasons why it doesn't matter prior to making that point: no one who lives at that town center development is ditching their car.
Quote:
WMATA had the good sense to place a Silver Line stop next to the Instant Urbanist town-center development just beyond Tysons proper.
Problem is that Philadelphia's economy is nothing like DC's. I guess if you don't care about Philadelphia and all the other suburbs it makes sense dumping billions into one of the wealthiest areas so that area can suck up even more of the region's outside investment.
Quote:
The 100 spur will end at First Avenue and North Gulph Road, next to the casino-hotel. A left turn and a few million more cubic yards of concrete and the line would go right to the Village's shopping center.
Which brings me to one of the details you're off on: The line will follow First Avenue, the main drag through the office park, to its end, and there's supposed to be a stop in the middle of the office park as well as the casino. So most of the office workers wouldn't be transferring to a bus at all.
In addition, the line will run through the King of Prussia Mall parking lot rather than across Mall Boulevard from it, so there's no playing ******* for the riders. Also this: Simon plans to add housing to the complex, either on the site of the vacant former JCPenney or closer to the edge of the property. Chances are they might add some next to one of the two stations serving the mall, given the space available next to where the Plaza-side station would be.
I looked at every stop on Google Maps. First is next to a Giant Grocery store and CVS. Second and third are in the mall parking lot. The fourth and fifth, the two stops that actually follow first avenue look like this:
Second Stop: Allendale Rd. and Wills Blvd (I find great irony that Cunningham's Piano Co. is one of the only stores directly at this location, given the Company was founded in Philadelphia in the 1800s, but has almost completely divested out of the city).
I worked at an office park in this area before where they closed one of the parking garages and we had to park in a big lot. People were so lazy, they complained that the walk was too far in the parking lot. The company literally had to have a temporary shuttle. To think anyone is going to walk more than a few buildings away in an area that currently does not even have sidewalks or crosswalks is, imo, a somewhat ridiculous notion.
Quote:
The line will most definitely not provide a one-seat ride from Philadelphia to the mall, as it will require a transfer at 69th Street Terminal for every Philadelphian who rides it.
Yes, I meant to say a one seat ride from 69th Street. I oversold it by saying Philadelphia.
Quote:
But — as Sammy215267 accurately points out — it will offer a more reliable trip between Center City and KofP.
So I will preface this by saying (it probably doesn't need to be said), I write things from the prospective of a late 20s professional..
The suggestion that the KOP extension would make SEPTA so much more reliable from Center City, it would sway more professionals who work in those office parks to ride it, is completely misguided.
To think a lot of people will want to wake up every morning. Walk to the MFL (which is inconvenient to a lot of Center City) . Wait for it, get on a crowded train, ride it all the way to the end of the line. Get out, wait for another train. Ride the other train all the way to the end of the line, to get out on the side of a quasi-office park highway and walk a quarter mile through a parking lot, is wrong imo. How much are we even talking about a difference from if you got off at Gulf Mills right now? 10-15 minutes? It would be a miserable journey.
Quote:
I don't know how many of you have ridden the 124/125 pair, but I've ridden them often enough to know that (a) their running time from Valley Forge or Chesterbrook and KofP to Center City varies dramatically depending on traffic and time of day, and it's longest at the peak commuter hours (b) most of those riding it work at the mall, and those who don't work there are largely less-affluent residents headed there to shop. I'd wager that first group would gladly switch to the train even with the transfer (and with the first transfer free now for SEPTA Key users, there's less of a fare penalty, or even none for those living near the rapid transit lines) simply because it would eliminate the possibility of being late for work because the bus got stopped in traffic (b) some people who do have a choice would take it to the mall to shop too, adding to its patronage.
Getting to Chesterbrook from Center City, you go to Paoli RR and take a shuttle (which companies have) or the 92 bus through the corporate park. I don't why you would ever waste so much time going the other way around. I also know you have never had to rely on SEPTA trains going out of the city to the suburbs every single morning if you think you will be arriving reliably on time lol.
And really I can't help but feel all you are doing is defending the regions awful regional planning. You basically are making a case that it's worth $2bn to marginally help people who have to travel over an hour to have a minimum wage job at the mall or casino or want to actually shop at respectable retail. People who are literally willing to take two trains and a bus for $9.25 an hour. That's a sin and a direct reflection of bad planning. Instead of investing in under served communities to spur new retail and offices closer to their homes, they want to double down on the awful planning and spend billions to develop grass lots to please wealthy landowners to spur more retail so more people living in poverty can have a miserable journey.
Sorry but I absolutely hate this project and think it's just another example of the misguided nature of our region when trying to plan a cohesive public transit system with limited funds
Last edited by thedirtypirate; 02-25-2021 at 08:33 AM..
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