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The problem with the loft district is that no one lives around it and not enough people live in it. You need a critical mass of people to support the basic amenities that make a neighborhood worth living in. It's no fun living in the city if you always have to travel to go to a restaurant, a bar, the pharmacy, the grocery store, etc. ..
When the Reading Viaduct becomes a linear park that neighborhood will take off, until then I don't see it.
actually, I think it will improve as east srping garden st improves, largely driven by development to the north which is developing more alon gthe lines of a traditional neighborhood. Prohibition and the Institute are both recent additions, then there's sazon, del espiga, siam lotus. a lot hinges on what blatstein does with the state office building IMO.
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Originally Posted by solibs
My educated guess tells me that things in South Philly are going to move at the quickest pace with West Philly in 2nd, the river wards in 3rd and the northern fringe along Girard (to include Brewerytown and Francisville) will move the slowest, but it's still moving.
I might quibble with the order of the last two but I think race is a big factor, and quite frankly a lot of people are more comfortable moving into a racist neighbrohood like port richmond than living in a diverse neighborhood like francisville, despite what they might tell you in person. and the first two are debatable as well, both are moving fast. the issue with south philly is that much of the area further south is already stable and a nice place to live, it's just isn't upscale. the "frontier" as you say is west of broad, though I think you implied that later. continued improvement in the city's crime rate will drive a lot of this though.
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Originally Posted by Commuting North
Right, I hear you and agree that gentrification is definitely underway in the border sections of Francisville. I'm talking about the entire area getting gentrified (like Northern Liberties), and I don't see the potential for that.
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Philadelphia's Office of Housing and Community Development has picked Cameron Square Neighborhood Development LP, a consortium of Exton-based Hankin Group, Sam Sherman Associates of Philadelphia and Dale Corp., over neighbors' choice Onion Flats LLC, of Northern Liberties, to develop 69 condos and townhomes on 1.5 city-owned acres at 19th and Wylie.
Additionally, that huge shelter/soup kitchen and clincs near and around Broad and Fairmount not to mention PHA housing scattered throughout Francisville, aren't going anywhere for quite some time. It would be nice if they rehabbed that huge building on the corner of Broad and Fairmount (used to be a hotel in early 1900s, then was used as lodging for Nuns I believe), but that's sat vacant for decades now.
I can see Francisville becoming a block by block situation, but I don't see it becoming gentrified to the point that it becomes a destination neighborhood.
I think it will happen relatively quickly but I tend to agree with your last comment. Spring Garden is almost entirely revitalized but hasn't become a destination at all and it's stretch of Broad provides no indicator that the neighborhood behind it is nice. thus, while the neighborhood might be revitalized, it may not be a "hot" neighborhood like Passyunk Sq or Graduate hospital was, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. OTOH, if the Divine Lorraine is developed (it was originally a luxury apartment building buil tin 1896m turned hotel in the 1920's, then the nation's (or city) first integrated hotel owned by Father divine until the 90's, and it's been closed since, largely intact until a developer gutted the place last year then did nothing with it. that said, I can see the temple area surprising people. housing stock is awesome and cheap and people are starting to believe Temple can pull off a smaller version of what Penn has done in West Philly.
not really, city branch isn't much of a barrieer at all.
If you can't cross it, go over it or under it - that's a barrier. I'm talking about getting to the park, not the parkway or museums.
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I was right about pennsport, not sure how you can disagree there. the area was obviously called southwark for a long time. I used to think the way you do until I discovered the truth about some neighborhood names. southwark makes a lot of sense. it was an area just to the south of central London (or The City). why the heck would Italian immigrants name an immigrant neighborhood "beautiful sight?" It wasn't always the quiet upper class enclave it is today.
here, proof
It doesn't translate to "Beautiful sight" - it's "beautiful view"
Vern Anastasio repeating what he heard from someone else is hearsay. It's not proof.
Same goes for Pennsport - it's anecdotal. Without doing some etymological research to find the first time the name appeared in print this isn't something you can definitively prove.
And for the record - I don't think these are ancient names. Pennsport probably first appeared in the 50s or 60s and Bella Vista sometime in the late 70s/early 80s.
In any case, I work(ed) in the planning and development field (sort of a moribund industry right now) and I can tell you first hand that it doesn't work the way you're suggesting . . . not unless you're some huge developer like K Hov. and BV, QV or Pennsport never had the land for big development projects like that.
Look at the real estate listings for crying out loud - you have realtors calling Newbold and Point Breeze "Grad. Hospital south". You still have listing for Bella Vista at 10th & Federal when just about everyone knows that's Passyunk Square. I've worked with these guys, as soon as i tell them what it's really called they change the name on the listing. It's not b/c they're trying to pull a fast one, it's because they really don't know.
No one alive today ever called their neighborhood Southwark - It's just the name people used before North/South/West Philly came into vogue. It covered a huge section of the city (and before it was even part of the city) that included many neighborhoods. I seriously doubt folks even back in the 1860s used it to describe their neighborhood as they most likely referred to where they lived by the name of the township.
Right, I hear you and agree that gentrification is definitely underway in the border sections of Francisville. I'm talking about the entire area getting gentrified (like Northern Liberties), and I don't see the potential for that. Too many bad surroundings with a lack of natural barriers. I haven't seen evidence that Girard Ave. up that way (where the street narrows significantly) will play the role of barrier as it does further East. Additionally, that huge shelter/soup kitchen and clincs near and around Broad and Fairmount not to mention PHA housing scattered throughout Francisville, aren't going anywhere for quite some time. It would be nice if they rehabbed that huge building on the corner of Broad and Fairmount (used to be a hotel in early 1900s, then was used as lodging for Nuns I believe), but that's sat vacant for decades now.
I can see Francisville becoming a block by block situation, but I don't see it becoming gentrified to the point that it becomes a destination neighborhood.
It took 25 years for northern liberties .When my friend bought 25 years ago it looked like brewerytown before westrum came in . Now look
totally forgot about that development in F'ville. Not sure how I feel about the city's choice of developer but it's good news for the neighborhood either way.
You're right about the race factor and people moving to (white) racist neighborhoods - which is why I didn't care to move to Fishtown/Richmond area and why I was a bit wary of moving south of Snyder. which is also why I think South Philly will be the quickest to get built out. It's mostly white-working to middle-class with the next biggest ethnic group being Vietnamese (who, like the Cubans, were mostly middle-class back home even if they came here with nothing), and the pockets of high-crime are small and continue to shrink.
The 17th Police District, now that they don't have to devote as much of their resources to Grad Hospital, are redeploying a lot of it into the southern half of the district. We had actual beat cops walking around the neighborhood all summer. It made a huge difference.
I totally hear you about NL. I've lived here for the last five years, and even in that short a timeframe I've seen unbelievable change. I think NL is an aberation rather than the norm though.
First of all, it's unique in that one developer, Bart Blatstein, with a very forward-thinking mindset, bought half of the property in the whole neighborhood. He built 10s of thousands of square feet of retail, residential and office space -- more or less re-inventing an entire square mile right in the middle of the neighborhood. I don't think you can count on that in most gentrifying situations. Second, the area itself is unique in that there is really only one bad border -- North. To the East is the River, South is empty but not dangerous, and only a little more than a 1/2 mile South is Old City. West was, and still is, rough, but there is a natural border on 6th St. (Kearny Elementary and residents that have always cared about their neighborhood). Also, the bad projects to the West don't really start until 10th St. which is obviously fairly far removed from 4th. Third, it's positioned very nicely for access to Jersey, Vine St. Expressway, and 95, making it a great commuter's neighborhood. Fourth, and probably most important, there has been an established mix of ethnicities and caring residents (dating back to when it was mainly a Polish and Russian neighborhood). White flight did not occur in NL like it did in Francisville. Not saying it's right, but it makes gentrifying (mainly brining in young white professionals) much more difficult when the entire neighborhood is poverty black. Also, there was an established neighborhood group since the early 70s that really fought for the neighborhood.
I think all of the above makes NL the exception rather than the rule, and I think you'd have a difficult time replicating the results in other areas.
If you can't cross it, go over it or under it - that's a barrier. I'm talking about getting to the park, not the parkway or museums.
but that's the way a lot of fairmounter access the park.
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Originally Posted by solibs
It doesn't translate to "Beautiful sight" - it's "beautiful view"
oh, well that proves your point.
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Originally Posted by solibs
Vern Anastasio repeating what he heard from someone else is hearsay. It's not proof.
Same goes for Pennsport - it's anecdotal. Without doing some etymological research to find the first time the name appeared in print this isn't something you can definitively prove.
minor quibble. btw free translation says
"attractive seen" http://ets.freetranslation.com/
I'm going to say he probably knows more about the neighborhood than you do. you provided anecdotal evidence as well. bella vista stuck, pennsport (sadly, stupid name) stuck. center city stuck. international city didn't stick. Junogi didn't stick, B3 didn't stick.
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Originally Posted by solibs
And for the record - I don't think these are ancient names. Pennsport probably first appeared in the 50s or 60s and Bella Vista sometime in the late 70s/early 80s.
In any case, I work(ed) in the planning and development field (sort of a moribund industry right now) and I can tell you first hand that it doesn't work the way you're suggesting . . . not unless you're some huge developer like K Hov. and BV, QV or Pennsport never had the land for big development projects like that.
Look at the real estate listings for crying out loud - you have realtors calling Newbold and Point Breeze "Grad. Hospital south". You still have listing for Bella Vista at 10th & Federal when just about everyone knows that's Passyunk Square. I've worked with these guys, as soon as i tell them what it's really called they change the name on the listing. It's not b/c they're trying to pull a fast one, it's because they really don't know.
No one alive today ever called their neighborhood Southwark - It's just the name people used before North/South/West Philly came into vogue. It covered a huge section of the city (and before it was even part of the city) that included many neighborhoods. I seriously doubt folks even back in the 1860s used it to describe their neighborhood as they most likely referred to where they lived by the name of the township.
uh huh, right. that's your story and you're sticking to it, despite the facts. whether the name came from realtors (bella vista, pennsport) or planners (center city, u city, R5) it wasn't organic. a lot of times realtors do know the difference and act stupid. I mean, "fishtown" clearly has a better rep than kensington and if someone think it's fishtown, they might be more willing to buy the home.
newbold wasn't organic either, one guy basically created it knowing realtors woudl latch on.
totally forgot about that development in F'ville. Not sure how I feel about the city's choice of developer but it's good news for the neighborhood either way.
You're right about the race factor and people moving to (white) racist neighborhoods - which is why I didn't care to move to Fishtown/Richmond area and why I was a bit wary of moving south of Snyder. which is also why I think South Philly will be the quickest to get built out. It's mostly white-working to middle-class with the next biggest ethnic group being Vietnamese (who, like the Cubans, were mostly middle-class back home even if they came here with nothing), and the pockets of high-crime are small and continue to shrink.
The 17th Police District, now that they don't have to devote as much of their resources to Grad Hospital, are redeploying a lot of it into the southern half of the district. We had actual beat cops walking around the neighborhood all summer. It made a huge difference.
That's good to hear. lots of mexicans too. South Philly appears to be less white than it used to be, but in a good way, not the traditional white/black divide. they absolutely selected the right developer. he's got money, onion flats may be cool, but they hadn't lined up financing and it could well have ended up like the divine lorraine. it's in the articles. but I think we need to distinguish from gentrifying to hot. passyunk square has it, port richmond doesn't (yet). it could if richmond yards are ever developed. I think, ultimately, pennsport will be second fiddle to PS. I hope gentrification moves west rather than south to drive out stable neighborhoods but I don't know that. to some extent, neighborhoods becaome hot because what occurs in them. I could see 52nd st becoming a thriving commercial street again. maybe west passyunk. I could also see Germantown making some noise.
re NL: really, it took 10 years of RE boom for NL.
uh huh, right. that's your story and you're sticking to it, despite the facts.
sorry, what facts? The fact that you cut and pasted something from a secondary or tertiary source?
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newbold wasn't organic either, one guy basically created it knowing realtors woudl latch on.
haha. hahaha. hahahaha. I was there when the name was adopted. It wasn't "created" at the meeting. It was chiseled into the corner of the building to signify the name of the street. It wasn't "one guy" and 4 years later the realtors have yet to catch on. The only people who have any idea what/ where Newbold is are people who read food blogs. People like Longacre and Anastasio are well meaning guys but a little self-aggrandizing and politically motivated. I know better than to take everything they say literally.
The only reason Newbold, Passyunk Square or EPX even appears in the drop down neighborhood menu on the MLS (for agents creating new listings) is because I got so tired of him using the wrong names that I told our agent that if he took the time to add those names to the system that I'd take the time to buy him lunch.
but I think we need to distinguish from gentrifying to hot.
I use it but I really don't like the term "gentrification". It gets thrown around so much that it means different things to different people.
For the most part, redevelopment is happening in already stable neighborhoods and the new people moving there are, for the most part, middle-class. I mean, $180k - $400k home prices is the marker for me.
People with more money might be buying from them in 5-10 years, once the neighborhood is established as a middle-class place.
Only in G-Ho have I seen $22k shells bought and flipped two years later as a $420k house. To me, that's the kind of stuff I think of when I hear about suburban crust punks in West Philly spray painting "yuppies go home."
Germantown is definitely on pace to make a huge comeback. It has such a great location with it being so close to CC, Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Fairmount Park, 76, The Blvd, Lincoln/Kelly Drive, 2 Rail Lines, 10 min bus ride to the subway. Not to mention the wonderful history and architecture of the entire area.
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