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Let me put my synthesis in context for you, Morbert. A friend on C-D was intrigued by my idiosyncratic and iconoclastic views and asked if I could summarize them all in one place for others. I spent all of three weeks doing so in what I believed would be an easily accessible and understandable overview of the relevant science and other material necessary to understand why I believe as I do. It was never designed to do anything but that . . . though it has generated much grief for me from all quarters. I am too old to want to do anything else with it other than what I have provided here. My friend seems satisfied with it and the rest is just fodder for those genuinely interested in why I believe as I do. I do my best to explain what people have difficulty with. That's it.
I was MORE than "satisfied" with it Mystic.
And will be forever grateful for the time and effort you put in to teach me when I requested it (more like begged, tried to bribe, and then basically pestered for months. LOL) from you.
When I compounded your problems by declaring my expertise was outside of the intricacies of the science...I appreciated your use of allegory and metaphorical illustrations to help me understand and explain it. I "got" the analogies just fine.
Anyone that could make the statement to you, "The fields, not energy, are the more fundamental thing"...just shows they have had no interest to even scope out, let alone in any way attempt to understand, your concepts.
You are wasting your time "debating" with them.
My diagnosis is a severe case of "Godophobia"...causing a mental allergy to anything supporting Theism.
Good to hear from you, my friend. Hope all is well with you. I am MORE than pleased that it met your expectations and that you understand it. It was not easy to compact so much into so few words . . . but it was more than I am up to these days. As you know, I am a decade past my genetic expiration date based on my parentage and do have some health issues.
I do not post replies for the benefit of the scoffers and those who would denigrate me, my knowledge or my motives, Gldn. I post to counter the almost ceaseless misinformation about and denigration of my rationale. It is for those who genuinely want to understand why I believe as I do. I just assume that there are lurkers out there who are like you, my friend. It can be quite frustrating . . . and I have to pace myself so as not to get too riled up for obvious reasons.
I am actually glad that you pestered me into writing it, Gldn. It has provided an excellent source of mental stimulation in my dotage.
God Bless you, my friend,
Mystic.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 05-09-2012 at 01:38 PM..
(accepts this premise* still lacks reason to infer mass comes from energy*)
Keep putting it off, guys...
I think the point being made is that, contrary to what intuition might tell us, the "forces" of the universe, and the "stuff" of the universe are different in degree, but not in kind. The are simply different manifestations of the field.
Over 4000 views. Startling that there are so many brilliant people running lose. Mass from energy? Or vise versa....is this one of those chicken or the egg conversations? Carry on..just thought I would drop by once all was solved. It looks like you need some more time in the equation.
This is the difficulty of inserting yourself into an ongoing discussion that this thread was designed to continue and clarify for those who HAVE read my synthesis. Here, catch up on the analogies and their reasons for being.
I read those links already, and referred to them many times on the thread. Repasting them again adds nothing except to fuel your usual approach of pretending you have presented arguments and evidence when you have not and that everyone else is just ignoring it.
The problem is "energy" is later used in the traditional sense. If energy is to be used as a shorthand for a field (A practice which I would still be opposed to.), then it must at least be used consistently.
It has also been argued that analogies have been made, which makes no sense. "Energy is mass accelerated to the speed of light." is categorically false, and not analogous to any physical process.
Speed of light squared, actually, as stated in the title. Of course c^2 isn't a speed, so the claim doesn't even rise to the level of wrong. But that's probably just us being too caught up in the non-philosophical aspects of science - or as I like to call them, reality.
Moderator cut: delete
The existential status of anything needs to be differentiated from our experience of it . . . something that seems intellectually difficult for some people to achieve. I tried to separate the existential status of everything as vibratory composites of waves from our experience of them in another thread. I think the analogizing and use of "speed" and "acceleration" (predominantly experiential terms) probably accounts for the lack of understanding as they apply to the vibratory status of the energy composites we experience as matter.
I am unsure what is unclear in this explanation or the simple analogy I used to explain the "acceleration" that produces the status change from matter (as we experience it) to energy (as we experience it). It is a quantum change("Leap?") in status from sub-light existence to light-squared existence . . . and our experience of it is likewise completely different. I will entertain further questions about this from anyone not on my personal ignore list.
Last night was the first I read of the synthesis. The following address's items found in the third segment. These comments are stated as opinion and have nothing to do with personalities, including my own. I am simply sharing .
Mystic...( third synthesis
Spiritual Implications
The implications of this "frequency range" understanding of the composition of reality as it manifests to our sensory systems can be difficult to digest. However, the appeal and ubiquity of music can be the cognitive lever that enables the appreciation of its implications for our relationship to God. God's "aggregate frequency" (Divine "key") is Love . . so everything in our consciousness that intends to be with God's consciousness must be played in that "key" in some "harmonic" that resonates. From Milic Capek:
. . . In the temporal structure of the perception of melody, features can be discovered which appear irrational in any visual-mechanical model of physical reality: the primacy of events, the absence of infinite divisibility, the compatibility of novelty and mnemic causation, the compatibility of continuity and individuality, the fusion of becoming with its concrete content.
. . . The positive significance of the auditory experience is in the fact that from it a certain imageless dynamic pattern may be abstracted which will probably offer a key to the understanding of the nature of the type of 'extensive becoming' that seems to constitute the nature of physical reality.
The entire purpose of our species is to produce "cellular forms" of consciousness that perfectly resonate with God's Cosmic Consciousness. None of our early primitive ancestors were remotely capable of achieving this . . . but by evolution of self-control through obedience training . . . we evolved the capability (the "meek inherit . . ."). The "spiritual template" revealed in our "spiritual fossil record" suggests that it takes at least ONE of us to achieve "perfect resonance" with God's consciousness to connect the cumulative output of humanity (our collective consciousness) to God's consciousness. Jesus Christ did that for us . . . and the rest is easy . . . just "love God and each other."
Procreative Thought: Our Eternal Soul Song
Our soul is a spiritual embryo in the womb of our brain. Energy transmutation is the mechanism underlying its maturation process and energy is the very substance of our soul. Our consciousness is our soul in the process of becoming. Our thoughts are the production process for the development to maturity (Death) and rebirth of our soul into its rightful plane of existence. But, pure thought, uncolored with human emotions, is not the type of consciousness we are supposed to produce.
For those of us who prefer right-brain imagery and analogy, musical composition provides the best analogue for our existence. Our mind is merely the conscious manifestation of the interaction between our soul and our animal nature. The relative strengths of these two "ingredients" yields the nature of our consciousness. You can view our consciousness as a mixture of thoughts and feelings (awareness and reaction) . . . just as a piano concerto is a mixture of melody and rhythm. The music is the product of the left and right hands, but it is neither all melody nor all rhythm . . . and it does not exist except as the product of the rhythm and melody hands.
Similarly, our consciousness is the "music" played by our soul and our animal nature (adversary) through the stereophonic system of our brain. This is the very essence of cosmic becoming, as Capek suggests,
Let us consider a piece of music . . . It is hardly necessary to underscore its successive character. As long as its movement is going on, it remains incomplete and in its successive unfolding we grasp in the most vivid and concrete way the incompleteness of every becoming. At each particular moment a new tone is added to the previous ones.
. . . The quality of a new tone, in spite of its irreducible individuality, is tinged by the whole antecedent musical context which, in turn, is retroactively changed by the emergence of a new musical quality.
. . . Every musical structure is by its own nature unfolding and incomplete; so is cosmic becoming, the time-space of modern physics.
This idea of the constantly changing character of a musical piece is amazingly evocative of the nature of our spiritual character. The retroactivity of the effects of each new note on the character of the entire preceding musical composition highlights the importance and impact of "repentance" on our Soul Symphony.
Soul Music
The phenomenon of music and its diversity of character and appeal is readily understood once the basic composition of the human psyche is fully understood. The amount and kind of rhythm and melody that is present determines the character of music. Music appeals to both facets of the human psychic makeup. This becomes clearer when you consider that rhythm and melody occur at separate ends of the sound spectrum. The rhythm or beat appeals to our animal nature. Our animal nature is the serpent (reptilian brain) or physical partner . . . therefore it is in the low frequency range of solid matter. The purest form of rhythm, the low frequency sound of savage drum beats, represents a predominance of animal appeal.
peter-1
( this is a good place to start and provides a basis for complaint against idea's brought forward, in the initial introductory dialog.
The beat as we know is a function which determines the pace in timing of a piece of music. It allows the music to understand its "place in time". In order to effect the lower base is utilized as a rudder on a small craft as it not only determines the pace it also influences tonal direction by specific tone in notes played in the base. This is very important as base is in fact not the representation of our animal, but the "guide" for the music, a story itself.
The base establish's a dominance in this role and the higher frequenceys in music played obey in unity with the governing characteristic's outlined in
determined direction by the lower base frequencey's. The participation of the lower base like thunder suggest "authoritative wish, which cannot be denied and is therefore more I would say representing a higher power idea, rather then whats being suggested. However, this again is not a favorable idea. I will show why very clearly a more suitable explanation in a moment.
Also, when we see young teenagers driving about with a loud thumping base in the car, or pop music with an extremely pronounced base, the attraction to this style of music is in keeping with above, when we consider the possible "need in youth" for the attraction to a strong governing influence, remarking to both society by musician and self by listener that indeed there rests a powerful influence of direction. In short a gap is filled in an unconscious known insecurity. This is well explained I feel. ( for time allotted today
Mystic......
Our soul is in the high frequency range of pure energy. Since our soul represents an accelerated state of energy or wave frequency compared to our animal nature, it follows that higher frequency sounds would be more compatible with our soul than with our animal nature. Furthermore, consciousness can more readily detect and appreciate the altered sequencing of harmonious sounds which is melody and can understand lyrics. The soft, euphonic, high frequency strains of a Stradivarius violin in the hands of a master, would represent a predominance of soul appeal.
peter-1
The extremeties in high-low frequenceys, express the boundaries neccesary allowing the system of music to exist. There are indeed character personalities in notes themselves, however the suggestion of appeal by individual frequency is very vague. As mentioned earlier, the lower base, or one individual lower base note played only sets a
dominant direction by tonal selection. Thats all.
The character within individual note can be heard only by someone with perfect pitch. I have better then perfect pitch. Even if a note is out of tune by 1/4- 2/3- up to even 1/2 a semi tone, which in fact is another note, I can still tell you just by hearing on pianoforte , the note struck was G, but its out of tune and trying to be a Gsharp. Why?..
because I can hear the character in the note itself, it has nothing to do with frequency. Each note has an individual unique character personality. One for example...F on pianoforte is the extreme in decisiveness. Bold, my name is Jack and thats all there is to that. E..is the other extreme, open to suggestion, non evasive, softer-agreeable...my name is Rose and I just am, what will be today in which I may too play ?
In evidence and in keeping with above, I offer Chopin's etudes in example. I have studied and played many in public. I enjoy teaching presently. None of the etudes would have the teriffic effect that each of them do, if transposed into another key signature. The choice in key signature by the composer is all about the story to be told. Again, the base has nothing to do with any character or designated qualitative appeal in merit as suggested. If anything it is in the use of the characteristics in each note tone as explained, which can create tension, incompleteness in music allowing for a release, in there abilities within key signature-character.
This association of tension-release and key signature are vital tools allowing the story of "translation of individual experience" to be told. Music is inviting because if we associate "another" experiencing and translating what we ourselves experience in the journey...we know we are not alone, one of mans largest fears. The story translation acts as example in management of the journey itself, which again is inviting as "hope in resolve by example of what would be fortitude is communicated in the story.
Mystic
The mixture of soul and animal that comprises our consciousness at any one time determines our preference in music at that time. The admixture determines the "resultant frequency" of our consciousness and subsequently determines its compatibility with various mixtures of melody and rhythm in music. That is why for most of us our taste in music is a fluid thing, highly dependent upon our mood or the circumstances we are in. This is further support for the notion that our consciousness is like the "music" played by our soul and animal nature. When the serpent is in charge, we prefer more rhythmic music. When our soul is in charge, we want more refined music. Most of us seek a compromise that equates to our "mood."
peter-1
It must be fully understood when speaking about music and the human, that music itself is a suggestion. An experience suggested within the experience of life. All three componants of our human property are in motion. The actual self or soul, the known self and the societal self whether playing for others, or self. The appeal to different kinds of music is founded on a number of different things in keeping with the mentioned participating properties of the human. Firstly and fundementally would be freedom.
The freedom to select from known experience what would nicely fill and express the particular residing emotion. This can only be established from memory in the experience of music to make a selection of determined choice. Also, in this regard, we now bring forward the repretoire of known music. An individual who's social enviorement is suggesting rap, will choose rap not all together out of soul state or choice, but to feel connected to the important social network which most shows, the greatest amount of time forward in experience. A person cannot enjoy music that was never enjoyed, its like an olive, aquired taste, followed by known experience full-filled.
Mystic
The idea of soul in charge and musical appeal
Arthur Schopenhauer captured this significant aspect of music in the following excerpts from The World as Will and Idea,
. . .in its language, which is understood with absolute directness, but which is yet untranslatable into that of the reason, the inner nature of all life and existence expresses itself.
peter-1
I differ here. The characteristic's in notes themselves and key signature, audible by myself within the composition, using tension and character provide absolute rational meaning. For the tension aspect imagine, any little tune like Mary had a little lamb, now stop anywhere...what follows in order to be in keeping with order-reason, must present itself. The unconscious knows what must follow in tension as well characteristic. I consciously hear
characteristic in keeping with order.
Mystic
. . . As quick transition from wish to satisfaction . . . is happiness and well-being, so quick melodies without great deviations are cheerful; slow melodies, striking painful discords, and only winding back through many bars to the key note are, as analogous to the delayed and hardly won satisfaction, sad.
. . . The short intelligible subjects of quick dance music seem to speak only of easily attained common pleasure. On the other hand, the 'Allegro maestoso,' in elaborate movements, long passages, and wide deviations, signifies a greater, nobler effort towards a more distant end, and its final attainment.
peter-1
Tempo is the use of time, tempo also makes a suggestion to our heart rate, suggesting moods and so forth. Time in music is important to understand. Markings in the score will make strong suggestions up to and including the very important use of "non-time" a rest marking.
The use of a rest and graduating toward in timing is very important. Some composers can use non-time very very effectively. In this non-time, we find a suggestion of the unknown mysterys of our origin. I will provide a piece, listen carefully and enjoy the use of graduating non-time, and non time, our mystery, not frequency. It is non frequency within frequency which holds the key. In evidence, the still before the storm, non time,reality, full reality...a suspence. Why...because we are afraid that we do not know, that reason is within non-time, but playing along in remarkable symphony with time. Our inner actual self knows however, otherwise the significance and sheer power of non time, graduating non time in music and other things holds the full reality. So...seems to me the base is closer but not the full rudder-governing, as it proceeds only, toward non wave frequency.
Mystic
. . . All that goes on in the heart of man and that reason includes in the wide, negative concept of feeling may be expressed by the infinite number of possible melodies, but always in the universal, . . . always according to the thing-in-itself, not the phenomenon, the inmost soul, as it were, of the phenomenon, without the body.
. . . According to all this, we may regard the phenomenal world, or nature, and music as two different expressions of the same thing, which is therefore itself the only medium of their analogy, so that a knowledge of it is demanded in order to understand that analogy.
While Shopenhauer's sensitivity enabled this discernment, he was unable to employ his own mandate that "a knowledge of it is demanded in order to understand that analogy." His highly philosophical approach was the only way he could support what he knew to be true, since contemporary physics was unknown to him. Today it is obvious how music and nature are "two different expressions of the same thing," once a knowledge of quantum mechanics and wave theory is employed. After all, music is merely waves of sound at varying frequencies, and matter is merely waves of energy at varying frequencies.
peter-1
Music only express's experience in nature, it is a manipulation of sound per experience using tension, time and tone characteristic. A communication. If well prepared it is not apart from nature, it represents a translation of experience within nature, and thus agree's with the properties of consequence to order in nature..it joins nature. They are not different expressions of the same thing. They are partners. A birds mating call itself by the nature of the partnership in music with nature....holds the key in luring the future hopeful spouse. Not different things expressing the same thing.
Mystic
The almost universal preference for lyric and melody indicates the general superiority of the soul, while the extreme diversity of the melodic character and its admixture with rhythm indicates the tenuous nature of that superiority. Gospel music can have tremendous soul-stirring power when it successfully merges strong rhythmic appeal with melodic and lyrical expressions of the strongest yearnings of our soul. It is another indication that controlling our animal nature and merging its emotions and promptings with our soul can yield the best accomplishments of humankind. The "meeting of two opposing energy events at opposite phasing " described by Einstein as producing the void or absence of space seems instructive.
In discussing dematerialization, Einstein described how such an effect could be achieved without there being any real emptiness,
peter-1
Its time...your after timelessness and getting all mixed up with the wave-frequency boundary. Music will not support and takes everything away from the idea, in frequency being sugessted in this manor
Mystic...
. . . a superposition of two oppositely oriented local curvatures of the non-Euclidean time-space which would cancel each other like two waves of equal amplitude meeting at opposite phases and the result would be a local disappearance of the non-Euclidean curvature. That particular region of time-space would acquire the homogeneous and undifferentiated character which characterizes what we call 'void' or 'absence of matter.'
That sounds a lot like the merging of two "opposing" energy events, perhaps like negative drive energy generated by our animal nature meeting an "opposing" positive drive energy in our consciousness generated by our soul. Think about it!
peter-1
(the squeech in nature on attack in suggested disorder to threat opposed to a lion low murmur in peaceful consequence to order?)
the whole use of boundary is being warped into meaning within themselves which is illogical to balance itself, and if undestood, what Ive carefully explained. The whole construction of this idea is problematic for myself in this regard only however, as I am not a scientist but a musician.
This was written quickly and in atonement find the enjoyment and use of timelessness by non-sound, or time decreasing effect toward nonsound, non time.. in this composition. A masterpiece for it. The base is not, the demise. It is the rudder. Thank-you for your patience and time. The timelessness in self re societal vrs actual self...the patience..non time and resulting consequence due to quality of patience. Our patience, our non-time connection with realism in the ultimate non time divine or what ever infinity all the idea's.
I don't buy into the rest of Mystics theory, but I am interested to know if the underlying premise regarding the relationship between forces and matter are correct.
Energy is mass accelerated....Mass is energy de-accelerated. From the laymen's point of view I imagine if molecules are slow in their movement they become more dense or more mass like..If they are accelerated and the movement of the molecules is so rapid they begin to escape their form..Much like when a black smith heats metal to white hot...sparks will leap from the object...so I assume if the acceleration is increased...that the atomic structure it self ventures into the realm of pure energy ....the FORCE would be received form another source...much like the fire in the black smith's forge..
So pure energy is a vibration that expands and contracts...I believe this is sort of a chain reaction...You heat it up- it breaks apart...then cools and contract to solid form - process repeats...This might mean there is a third source of power....oh well - so much for this grade 10 drop out....I guess it takes a formal education to figure this stuff out?
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