Rape is not about sex? (points, marriage, soul, humans)

[ackmondual]

Originally Posted by AnywhereElse

Rape is not about sex. It is about mentally and morally sick people taking something that was not offered to them and to which they had no right to take. It is a violent crime against another person.

So is homicide, brutal beatings, and theft. Despite how it's all bad, I still wouldn't classify it as a rape, and the law wouldn't either unless intercourse were involved.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by ackmondual

So is homicide, brutal beatings, and theft. Despite how it's all bad, I still wouldn't classify it as a rape, and the law wouldn't either unless intercourse were involved.

In some, if not most, jurisdictions, any penetration of the vagina or anus without consent can be considered rape. The best thing to do is not to do either without consent. Of course it's immoral to do so without consent in any jurisdiction, and thus wrong anywhere. But I'm just sticking to legalities here.

[Meyerland]

Originally Posted by stan4

I think rape is about sex.
They want sex. The person says no. THEN it's about the power to override the decision to say no.

You make it sound like people just decide to rape. Like...I want it...I'm gonna rape this person.

Rapists already know they are going to rape. They actively seek out vulnerable people and actively choose to rape. It's not like they get sexually excited and just choose not to control themselves.

I get that this is in a philosophy forum, but you guys really need to talk with some women and men who are actual victims. Volunteering is fairly easy through many universities.

Men are raped a lot more than you think, and it's not roaming homosexual guys who are doing the majority of male on male rape. There are older women, children, animals, etc...that are raped because the rapists want to rape someone. The very act of rape is enticing to them.

This is about male on male rape, from Ohio University. Very enlightening on describing the perpetrators and their reasoning. This comes directly from the perpetrators themselves on WHY they rape. http://www.odh.ohio.gov/~/media/ODH/...dix182011.ashx

[Meyerland]

Originally Posted by soletaire

It's not that rape isn't about power, so much as the fact that much of consensual sex itself is about power as well...and that despite the fact that everyone wants to sound like they are above it, a great many people (women included) get off on the relenting and exchanges of power during sex; even during perfectly consensual sex. So what we are left with is the reality that the two (rape and sex) are not mutually exclusive. Nor can the societal acceptance of consensual sex logically hinge on the false notion that an element of power transfer is inherent to, and is a defining element of one (rape), while it absolutely has nothing to do with the other (consensual sex)....choosing to believe this is simply another form of cognitive dissonance rooted in a blind refusal to accept the unneat nuances of human sexuality. Because, if acknowledged, these nuances would reveal that the same things that arouse us may also be the very things that repulse us, in a different context.....and that ultimately, where power transfer is concerned, there is an overlapping presence of it in both consensual and non consensual sex acts. Some would say that the power transfer sought during consensual sex is not a true transfer of power, so long as the partner who is more vulnerable during the act retains the power to stop the act at anytime. But this would mean that as long as the partner who is acting as the aggressor still believes his or her partner is totally helpless during the act, then a rape has still occurred, irrespective of the fact that the person may have actually wanted to be dominated and has enjoyed the experience. So the mere fact that one chose to be an accomplice to another person's desire to be dominated, means that he or she is now a rapist, despite the reality that nothing was forced upon anyone without their consent.

You are confusing consensual sex with overtones of bdsm with rape. Please just stop. There is a huge difference. Many rape survivors will thank you. Hopefully no one you know or love will never be raped, except that's statistically not a reality. So be careful where you spew this nonsense.

Participating in BDSM is not the same as raping someone or being raped.

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by soUlwounD

I don't know how it was taught to pinker and you.

For me it was taught that sex happends when both willingly wants it. Rape happends when other party does not want it but one still does or continues it by forcing.

In this case, we have a totally uninteresting quibble about the meaning of the verb form of the word 'sex'. If you simply define 'sex' as consensual then, of course, rape is not about sex. But then, by that standard, a great deal of reproduction happens throughout the animal kingdom that is not about sex - offspring generated even though the animals did not "have sex". We quickly get bogged down in pointless wordplay. Pinker and I are using the word 'sex' in the biological sense, which is to say, activity that is functionally rooted in the potential union of a sperm and an egg. For this potential to exist, the male must be aroused enough to contribute sperm (at least potentially, or "in principle"). This does not mean that masturbation, anal sex, oral sex, heavy petting, etc, are not sex. True, these activities have no immediate potential for generating offspring, but they are still instance of sexual activity because these behaviors only exist in the wider context of an essentially sexual species. The same basic drive (the drive to release sexual tension) that leads to reproduction in many circumstances, is the drive that leads to masturbation, etc. The same parts of the nervous system that light up during the pursuit of, or during the act of, reproductive intercourse also light up during these non-reproductive forms of sexual activity.

If we want to solve a problem, it is best if we correctly understand the problem, and concepts based on scientifically verified data are generally the best route to understanding. If we want to minimize rape, we need to correctly understand rape. Saying that rape "is not about sex" is simply incorrect, from a scientific point of view. In the animal kingdom, there is consensual sex (female chooses the male) and there is non-consensual sex (female fights back, but is overcome by the male). Humans are basically the same, except for one huge, major, gigantic, enormous, deeply profound difference: Humans are conscious, highly intelligent abstract thinkers who create cultures/societies based on empathy-based moral rules. We recognize the evil of abuse. We recognized the need for compassion and the utility of following rules. Thus, what is merely non-consensual sex in the animal kingdom is rape in human culture. The concepts of non-consensual sex in the animal kingdom and rape in human culture are not mutually exclusive. The fact that we apply the moral concept of rape to the biological concept of non-consensual sex does not change the underlying biological fact that most rape is non-consensual sex. (This is not to deny that some rapes truly are purely about the sheer thrill of abuse, exerting power, etc.)

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by Meyerland

Rapists already know they are going to rape.

One major problem with this discussion is that people tend to make blanket statements, as if everything were black and white / all-or-nothing. Reality rarely conforms so neatly to our intellectual categories. There are many types of rapes and many types of rapists. I'm fairly certain that the majority of date rapes were not planned to be rapes. In most cases, the rapist was probably hoping/planning to have sex, but most were not planning to rape. In some cases, I suspect that the guy did not even consciously realize that he was committing rape until after the fact. When swamped by stress/emotion/agitation our minds can play a lot of tricks. This does not in any way, shape, or form excuse the behavior in these circumstances - the rapist is still fully responsible for his actions and deserves whatever punishment he gets. But it is sheer delusion to think that most instances of date rape are "not about sex." I have focused on date rape in this post because it is probably the clearest form of unplanned rape. But again I caution against instantly generalizing statements to "all" or "every". Reality is full of subtleties.

I find it amazing how often, in these types of discussions, people seem to completely lose the ability to distinguish between "some", "mostly", and "all".

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by jerseygal4u

Then maybe you could explain why men rape 89 year old women then?

You can find "grandma" porn sites on the internet. Some men are sexually aroused by old women. And I'm guessing that some old women are glad that some men are still attracted to them.

Or explain why some women teachers rape 15 yr old schoolboys?

In the case of women engaging in statutory rape with boys, I can pretty much guarantee that most of the boys are willing participants. When I was 10 years old, I had a crush on my brother's girlfriend (she was around 25 at that time). I didn't understand much of anything about sex, but I would have been ecstatic if she had tried to teach me. I do not intend for this to condone or excuse the statutory rape of boys by women, nor am I saying that all boys would react favorably to the sexual advances of a woman, nor do I want to rule out the possibility that the statutory rape of a boy couldn't turn out to be traumatic in the long run, even if he was a willing participant at the time of the rape. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there is, generally speaking, a fairly radical difference between boys and girls in this regard.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is this: Most women who engage in statutory rape with boys probably do so because they are sexually aroused by boys, and it probably helps that boys are often so willing to participate. Yes, there is an inherent power imbalance between a teacher and a schoolboy, but in most cases the women does not need to take advantage of this power imbalance to coerce or manipulate the boy because the boy is already a willing participant.

I would also add that most 15 year old kids look a lot like young adults. Biologically, we are definitely designed to be sexually attracted to young adults. It is not weird or perverted for someone to feel sexually attracted to a 15 year old. It is simple biology. And, of course, until fairly recently in human history, it was not uncommon for 15 year olds to be married and/or raising kids. Again, this is not meant to excuse statutory rape. There are some good arguments for why adults should not have sex with 15 year olds, and we expect people to behave honorably, despite their biologically normal feelings of desire.

Again, pretending that certain facts are not facts does not help us solve problems.

[NYJoe]

Originally Posted by cb at sea

Rape is about power....not sex, per se.

Originally Posted by soUlwounD

Anyone who is thinking rape is about sex has gotten wrong what sex is...

I guess reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Read the ENTIRE post.

[soletaire]

Originally Posted by Meyerland

You are confusing consensual sex with overtones of bdsm with rape. Please just stop. There is a huge difference. Many rape survivors will thank you. Hopefully no one you know or love will never be raped, except that's statistically not a reality. So be careful where you spew this nonsense.

Participating in BDSM is not the same as raping someone or being raped.

No, in your logicallly feeble attempt to rebut the fact that power transfer is also an inherent part of consensual sex you are confusing the reality that sex and fetishism arent black and white. But because you lack any ability to assess nuance, coupled with your apparent emotional sensitivity, you honestly think that anyone implied that rape is the same exact thing as fetishism. Rather than realizing that my post was speaking to the fact that a fondness for the relinquishing and pursuit of power during consensual sex can absolutely also come from the same place as the desire for power during rape.
And I dont want nor need the thanks of rape victims nor rapists. Thanks for the offer though.

[cb2008]

If only the rapist has orgasm is it still sex? sex without consent is violence. to see it any other way is not to consider the victim.