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Here is an interesting thought experiment: Imagine an alien of extreme intelligence that is observing earth passively from somewhere. It observes a father and daughter hug. It observes two dogs approach each other and sniff each other's butts as dogs do. It then observes two ants approach each other and briefly touch antennae. It then observes two plants next to each other whose leaves briefly touch from a breeze.
What conclusions would the alien draw? Would the alien see anything qualitatively different from what the humans do than the other living things?
I don't understand your point...but I'll answer your question.
I very much doubt aliens would be able to develop the technology to view us without being social organisms...so they'd almost certainly easily distinguish between the behaviors of ants, and humans, and dogs, and plants. They'd probably build things, so they'd be able to distinguish the builders of complex technology from dogs and such. They'd probably be able to distinguish the plants from ants because ants are a different sort of life form than plants. Ants can interact with their environment in much faster ways.
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If the alien had the ability to probe our brains it would no doubt see some subtle change in the people for sure, and perhaps even the dogs and the ants. But of course when those entities die, that change in physiological state disappears with them.
Agreed
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The point here is that love and other human emotions do not exist anywhere except in our heads. And since our heads are a result of genetics and evolution, our emotions are just an artifact of evolution. This is a hard concept for people because people want to believe that humans are somehow special, that we are the endpoint of evolution and the purpose of it. But there is no evidence for any of that and in fact the evolutionary record indicates that it is highly likely that Homo Sapiens at some point will be replaced with something better adapted to the environment of the future. Can you definitively say that the new hominid which replaces humans will hug and love as we do now?
I don't see why it matters whether or not any hominid species that replaces humanity will hug and love as we do now. I don't see why it matters whether or not humans are special. I am confident it doesn't matter whether or not we describe human emotions as existing. The point is we feel them...so we might as well describe them as having value for discussions like this. If you prefer, think of them like mirages. Yeah, in a sense, mirages don't exist too...but that doesn't mean nothing is making the mirages. It's just not the swimming pool we think it is. Emotions are kind of like that.
To answer your question though...I cannot say whatever replaces humans, if anything, will hug and love as we do now. I think they would have a kind of empathy...at minimum a potential for cognitive empathy, for the same reason this clinically diagnosed psychopath appears to have the capacity for cognitive empathy, although not instinctive empathy:
In your romantic relationship, does that present a challenge as far as talking about values, or knowing what to do when someone wants sympathy from you?
Certainly. I’ve been with my partner for 19 years, and he’s been with me through the whole diagnostic process, and it’s definitely been a learning curve. He’s probably one of the most patient people you will ever meet on the planet. He reads people and he understands people on a level I simply don’t. Through learning from him, I actually can apply that back to him, and understand what his needs are. It’s always a conscious effort. I know that for a lot of people, their significant other is more important to them than themselves. They think of them first, that sort of thing. That will never be natural for me. I always have to make sure I am manually considering him. There are certainly things that I miss, and it requires me to have to do bimonthly maintenance. Am I hitting all the marks for you? Do I need to do anything differently? Where am I not fulfilling what you need? And usually he’s like “eh, it’s fine.” https://www.thecut.com/2018/08/my-li...sychopath.html
She experiences no fear. She doesn't understand the fear of death or the desire to be accepted...and there she is, putting aside her impulses to benefit another person. Even if her actions are only to benefit herself because her relationship assists her...I don't know why she couldn't, in an abstract kind of way think, "I dislike pain. My boyfriend dislikes pain too. I should go out of my way to help my boyfriend avoid pain, because he is essentially me in many ways," but that depends on how psychopaths really think. I can't be sure about that...only make guesses. I'd really like to talk to one and ask them if they can understand the significance of that type of thought process.
That's the kind of empathy I'm counting on expanding and ruling society to greater and greater degrees in the future...not necessarily the emotional kind, because I think that cognitive brand of not necessarily emotional empathy is the kind people can just agree on, regardless of their natural emotions, and that the more humanity, or its offshoots, learns about the universe around us and thinks about it, the more of that cognitive empathy we'll understand, and see reasons for it to rule us.
I think you're over complicating things and you're ignoring all the important factors in favor of totally meaningless ones like whether or not we describe feelings as existing. You're like the equivalent of someone saying, "I'm going to dip my hand into a pot of boiling water because my feelings are an illusion." I'm more like someone saying, "You probably shouldn't do that...because illusion or not, it's going to hurt."
I think you're over complicating things and you're ignoring all the important factors in favor of totally meaningless ones like whether or not we describe feelings as existing.
Lol. Your opening post was quite a complicated treatise with "morality formulas" and such!
Clearly what you think is important I think is meaningless and vice-versa. Not surprising; this is C-D after all.
Lol. Your opening post was quite a complicated treatise with "morality formulas" and such!
Yeah...it's kind of funny, but all that is basically saying is, "Don't put your hand in a pot of boiling water because it'll hurt," followed by the ramifications of extending that thought process down what I see as its logical route.
By saying that emotions don't matter...that may sound simpler, but I think you're saying something a lot more confusing than I am. Feelings matter. They're real...if we're worried about practical descriptions at least. The simple fact is that if they weren't real or didn't matter you'd have no reason not to put your hand in a pot of boiling water. So far as I can tell, a rational person would want to genetically engineer octopi to be different someday for the exact same reasons they wouldn't want to stick their hand into that pot of boiling water.
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Clearly what you think is important I think is meaningless and vice-versa. Not surprising; this is C-D after all.
Those would probably take five times as long. I'd have to figure out how to condense everything but still get the point across...but I'll consider it. Thanks.
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No need to condense Clintone..
It can still be all the same post...just separated into multiple posts.
I could converse with you about your thoughts and ideas so much easier if I could respond to one paragraph at a time.....take care..your imagination is fantastic.
No need to condense Clintone..
It can still be all the same post...just separated into multiple posts.
I could converse with you about your thoughts and ideas so much easier if I could respond to one paragraph at a time.....take care..your imagination is fantastic.
Thanks.
When I do that though, central ideas get buried under other posts and never seen again, and I have to make the same arguments over and over again anyway...and it probably, overall, gets even longer than this...but I get your point. I might do that more often in the future.
This is intimidating to read or respond to. I just cared more about not having to do the above than having people interested in responding.
Thanks.
I have to make the same arguments over and over again anyway...and it probably, overall, gets even longer than this...but I get your point. I might do that more often in the future.
This is intimidating to read or respond to. I just cared more about not having to do the above than having people interested in responding.
that's why you have to make the same arguments over and over again...too long..too many arguments in one post....good way to keep people from responding though, which (as you say) is not your interest anyways.
that's why you have to make the same arguments over and over again...too long..too many arguments in one post....good way to keep people from responding though, which (as you say) is not your interest anyways.
I have an idea. If people aren't reading the full idea, there's no point to posting it in the first place. They can break it up on their own if they want, and only respond to certain segments.
I have an idea. If people aren't reading the full idea, there's no point to posting it in the first place. They can break it up on their own if they want, and only respond to certain segments.
Or, realize this: you will never make everyone happy at the same time. For example, I think nature can do a better job than humans. If nature deems mosquitoes necessary, then I’ll be unhappy if you eradicate them. Humans are not as intelligent as they think they are.
There is no “common good” because: you will never make everyone happy at the same time.
And as we have seen, when people have nothing to complain about, they’ll invent things to get upset about.
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