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...and as home selling goes...sad to leave our beloved neighborhood and improved home but anxious to transition into our future home before the holidays as my husband's work draws us back to California.
Moderator cut: snip
We are considering either listing with a local agent and doing the 'basic pkg.' or possibly a flat fee listing and still doing at least 3% to Buyer's Agent, as we've done houses in other states like this and it actually worked out very good but not sure if flat fee listings sell here in FH. Any input on this? I did have one realtor at another home in another state tell me that when clients come to her office, first she pushes her listings, then the other agents' in her office listings, then other realtors' listings....and finally, if the clients are going to walk away and seek another agent, she will show FSBO and Flat Fee listings.
Two homes on our street in our price range have recently sold within 2 days and 2 weeks as we are thinking around 329,000 now but may do 319,000 but hoping to not have to give it away at like 299,000. Neighboring homes on the market are significantly higher, generally, at 630,000 and 799,000 and. we have some of those 1.5-2 mil homes around. The neighbors say that in our price range, the houses go fast in this immediate area.
What are your thoughts out there, fellow Arizonians????
Last edited by Kimballette; 10-14-2011 at 05:18 AM..
Reason: Sorry, a bit too close to real estate advertising.
What do you think about flat fee listings and/or the basic pkg. traditional realtor? I feel good about our home selling fast because of our neighborhood and recent sales but....
Last edited by Kimballette; 10-15-2011 at 03:02 PM..
Reason: Discussing moderation in the forums is not permitted. Please read the Terms of Service. Thanks.
With a flat fee listing, the agent listing your home is only placing it on the mls and is not acting as your agent.
If I bring a buyer, then I'm having to deal directly with a home owner who is a "non-represented seller". That makes me nervous because s/he is not going to have anyone to interpret the contract documents and guide them through escrow.
You would have to sign a non-represented seller" disclosure that would be for my protection, but I'm still nervous.
You have no agent to look out for your interests; and I'm legally obligated to solely look out for my buyers interest, and I would be concerned about having to do a lot of the paperwork and things that the listing agent would normally do. And in doing some of that, I may do something that could be legally construed as being an "implied" agent of the seller. In that event I would accidentally become a dual agent without the required consent of both the buyer and seller.
Due to these potential legal issues, I would advise my buyer that I'm not comfortable working in that situation and would suggest that s/he bypass that home.
Not every agent will share my same views, but I understand the laws of agency, and don't want to get myself into a situation where I could get sued by either one or both the buyer and seller over an "agency" situation.
While not every agent would be as cautious as I am about potential legal problems, it could still take away part of your potential market.
Please understand that I have no objection at all to a seller listing through an agent who only puts the listing on the mls for a flat fee. Nor do I have any objections to sellers wanting to sell their home completely on their own as For Sale By Owner.
It's only the "potential" of establishing the "implied" agency that makes me want to have my buyers avoid those situations.
...I appreciate your professional honesty and voicing your concerns. Contracts are academic to us as we've been through this a few times and my husband's been a real estate investor for years but know that the realtor reception to flat fee listings can vary in each area.
I can appreciate and understand your caution with legalities as we are very legal and detailed people ourselves because it saves time, money, headaches and attorney fees in the long run. However, since the escrow company is responsible for taking the buyer and seller through the sale your extreme caution is just a bit puzzling to me as our previous flat fee listing home sales went very smooth and in no way did we, implied or not, consider the buyer's agent our agent.
...and as home selling goes...sad to leave our beloved neighborhood and improved home but anxious to transition into our future home before the holidays as my husband's work draws us back to California.
Moderator cut: snip
We are considering either listing with a local agent and doing the 'basic pkg.' or possibly a flat fee listing and still doing at least 3% to Buyer's Agent, as we've done houses in other states like this and it actually worked out very good but not sure if flat fee listings sell here in FH. Any input on this? I did have one realtor at another home in another state tell me that when clients come to her office, first she pushes her listings, then the other agents' in her office listings, then other realtors' listings....and finally, if the clients are going to walk away and seek another agent, she will show FSBO and Flat Fee listings.
Two homes on our street in our price range have recently sold within 2 days and 2 weeks as we are thinking around 329,000 now but may do 319,000 but hoping to not have to give it away at like 299,000. Neighboring homes on the market are significantly higher, generally, at 630,000 and 799,000 and. we have some of those 1.5-2 mil homes around. The neighbors say that in our price range, the houses go fast in this immediate area.
What are your thoughts out there, fellow Arizonians????
I think you should do the flat fee listing. There are many resourceful people in the Valley that will find your listing. An increasing number of buyers have access to the MLS either by obtaining their own real estate license or getting it free through websites. They will find your listing. In larger cities on the coasts, this is becoming an increasingly common practice. Either way, you lose nothing in attempting it. Try it out and let us know how it works for you good or bad. In general, people in the Valley are very real estate savvy and I don't think you will have difficulty doing the flat fee/3% buyer's agent route. I've known many people who have gone through this route and have had a lot of success in the Valley.
...I appreciate your professional honesty and voicing your concerns. Contracts are academic to us as we've been through this a few times and my husband's been a real estate investor for years but know that the realtor reception to flat fee listings can vary in each area.
I can appreciate and understand your caution with legalities as we are very legal and detailed people ourselves because it saves time, money, headaches and attorney fees in the long run. However, since the escrow company is responsible for taking the buyer and seller through the sale your extreme caution is just a bit puzzling to me as our previous flat fee listing home sales went very smooth and in no way did we, implied or not, consider the buyer's agent our agent.
Just FWIW, the title agencies can vary greatly in the amount of support they provide for the transaction. In my experience, they aren't that "active" in calling the parties up and saying "now we need this", etc. The clock ticks down to the day before closing, and then they go through the paperwork and start finding the kinks in the deal.. i.e., "we never got your HOA docs", "no one will give us a final water bill", etc. If you (or your agent) aren't calling regularly, your file will get pushed to the side when they hit a roadblock, and it won't get noticed until the last minute.
...I appreciate your professional honesty and voicing your concerns. Contracts are academic to us as we've been through this a few times and my husband's been a real estate investor for years but know that the realtor reception to flat fee listings can vary in each area.
I can appreciate and understand your caution with legalities as we are very legal and detailed people ourselves because it saves time, money, headaches and attorney fees in the long run. However, since the escrow company is responsible for taking the buyer and seller through the sale your extreme caution is just a bit puzzling to me as our previous flat fee listing home sales went very smooth and in no way did we, implied or not, consider the buyer's agent our agent.
I'll try to clear up the puzzle for you.
I'm primarily a buyers agent. I do not solicit for listings, and only do a few by referral. My preference is working with buyers. So please understand that I have no bias either way for how a seller lists their property.
My sole concern is the protection of my buyer and my company. (I'm a broker, own my own company, and as a broker who can hire, supervise and train agents, the broker is held to a higher standard. That could work against me in the event of a lawsuit.)
The escrow company assembles the documents provided to them by the buyers/sellers and agents. They hold the earnest money. They order the HOA demand documents, and they will order the home warranty for the buyer if desired. They fill out the HUD-1, receive and distribute funds as per the contract.
They do not get involved in the contract, contract deadlines, extensions, negotiations, addendums, due diligence, inspections, disclosures, SPDS, BINSR's, C.L.U.E reports, re-negotiations, disputes, etc, except as it applies to escrow instructions within the contract. The parties to the contract are responsible for all that.
A telephone call to an escrow officer will confirm their duties and responsibilities.
Regarding 'implied" agency; that is not something you would determine. Most people, and some agents don't even know or understand what implied agency is. If there is a lawsuit against the agent by a buyer or seller, the opposing attorney would certainly look for anything that could be construed as implied agency, so s/he could accuse the agent of illegally acting as a dual agent, and a judge would make the determination.
If, after the transaction, my buyer becomes unhappy about something that occurred during the transaction, and if I had assisted the seller fill out a form, such as an addendum, the buyer could claim that I was working for the sellers interest. If I answered a question for the seller about a clause in the contract by interpreting that clause, it could easily be considered implied agency. It could be a clause in a counter offer that I write, and the seller asks me to interpret that clause for them. If I interpret that clause then I could be acting as an "implied" agent for the seller.
Or if the seller asks me to interpret the clause, and I properly advise the seller to get an attorney to interpret it because I am not their agent, the seller could get angry and just refuse to accept the counter, and cancel; wasting my buyers and my time.
The agency law is very strong in AZ, as it describes the agents fiduciary duties to the client, and to the other parties. There is "express" agency, that is disclosed in an Agency Disclosure form, that the buyer signs. Then there is "implied" agency that occurs when an agent takes an action that would make it appear as s/he is acting as an agent.
A judge could rule that the action I took did "imply" agency and therefore I was illegally acting as a dual agent without the consent of both parties. If that were to occur, then my E&O insurance may not cover me because it could show gross negligence on my part.
Dual agency is legal in AZ, provided both seller and buyer agree and sign the dual agency disclosure form, and understand the implications. I won't work in a dual agency situation because of the potential legal implications. And when working with a non-represented seller the risk is there of getting into a dual agency situation accidentally through the actions that can be shown to establish an "implied" agency.
When an agent becomes a dual agent, both seller and buyer must agree and sign a "Consent to Limited Representation" form. Then the agent must become neutral and cannot advocate for either buyer or seller. In my opinion, if I have a listing, and request the seller to accept dual agency, then I am doing that seller a disservice because I can no longer work in his/her best interest.
I have a listing now, where I informed the seller that I would not act as a dual agent if a buyer comes to me. That buyer must find his/her own buyers agent so I can still continue to act in my seller's best interest. He understood and agreed.
Many agents will accept dual agency, and many agents won't. Dual agency has become illegal in may states because of the conflict of duties.
Many agents will work with non-represented sellers.
Many won't, and the reasons vary. Some agents state they will not work with a non-represented seller because they have to do the work of the sellers agent and supply and fill out all the forms for the seller and guide them through the process to prevent delays because most sellers don't understand the process.
What they're missing is the fact that if they do this work for the seller, they may be effectively acting as an implied agent for the seller, and therefore, accidentally entering into an illegal dual agency relationship. (Illegal because both buyer and seller have not signed a "Consent to Limited Representation" form. Among other things that form states that "there will be conflicts in the duties of Loyalty, Obedience, Disclosure, and Confidentiality")
Because I understand the laws of agency, and the pitfalls, I choose to take the safe route because I never want to be involved in a law suit from a buyer or seller. The commission is not worth the risk for me.
I don't know if that clears up for you the concern I have, but there is so much more to real estate and real estate law that most people don't realize, and certainly don't understand because they haven't had the training and the experience.
The old saying that "you don't know what you don't know" certainly applies to real estate. Unfortunately, many individuals who give advice on forums "don't know what they don't know" so they give well meaning, but poor advice based on what they think they know, but don't know.
In responding to your request for opinions, it is not my purposeto persuade you in any direction.
I think you should go the way that you're most comfortable with, and that you feel will serve you best.
I'm simply giving you my thoughts and my concerns for my company's legal protection, as you requested; and there are other agents who share my concerns. So while you may do a flat fee listing and sell you home in one day without a hitch, and I sincerely hope you do, there will be a portion of the market that will not see your home because some agents will not work with non-represented sellers.
You should not let that persuade you to not go that route, because many people in the valley have huge power lines running directly behind their homes, and while their market is diluted by people who refuse to buy close to power lines, they still get their homes sold.
...your concerns and your concern with your company's liability and we are not expecting to be persudaded either way but simply seeking input from the people that live here and know best.
My husband is actually the one expediting the process (with or w/o a realtor) to keep the lagards moving along to stay on schedule and I am thankful that he has the experience and knowledge to analyze all clauses, etc. w/o any assistance to come to our own determinations. We do not need a realtor to interpet or negotiate anything for us...for it's simply a matter of coming to terms...or not.
And, no offense to your profession, but we've yet to encounter a realtor that really does anything rather than show up for closing (if that...yep, had one of those) and hand out for their commission. We've been in a position to sell a number of desirable homes and as your experiences shape your views, ours also shape ours.
And lastly, yes, if we lived down in the concrete heat bowl next to huge power lines, I could definitely see the need for a realtor to try to draw some buyers in but I am fortunate that our situation is not a hard sell but an easy commission for whoever wants it, based on our neighborhood, home and community.
We also understand the pressures of the current real estate market and are not being greedy in our asking price but simply pricing it competively in this market.
The thing that puzzles me, though, Captain Bill, is why some realtors are unwilling to take a easy breezy 3-4% commission rate when things are the way they are in the current market and some people are having to sell their homes in the negatives. I will respect the realty companies more the day I see that they are willing to lower their commissions to adjust to the market. The negativity from realtors to sellers doing FSBO or flat fee is unwarranted and unjustified as long as the seller is willing to do the 3-4%.
When the housing market has been through so much...
...it's too bad when buyers approach their agent to see a home that they've seen online and have fallen in love with, and the agent bows out. This inadvertantly creates another negative to an already suffering housing market situation in that the buyer doesn't get the house that they desire working with the agent whom they have entrusted with their needs, wants and time.
We have the buyer sign and date a realtor designed legally binding document, if they tell us they are not working with an agent, to ensure that months down the line, a realtor or realtors do not approach us wanting a commission. This keeps buyers honest and gives us, as sellers, legal peace of mind.
The thing that puzzles me, though, Captain Bill, is why some realtors are unwilling to take a easy breezy 3-4% commission rate when things are the way they are in the current market and some people are having to sell their homes in the negatives. I will respect the realty companies more the day I see that they are willing to lower their commissions to adjust to the market. The negativity from realtors to sellers doing FSBO or flat fee is unwarranted and unjustified as long as the seller is willing to do the 3-4%.
Actually our commissions adjust to the market each time a home price is lowered. In general the prices of homes in the Phoenix area are back at the 2001 level, and that is where our commissions are.
However, you're getting into another subject now when you start complaining about Realtor fees. That isn't what you asked for in your original post.
You asked for input on whether Flat Fee listings will sell here, and you said you were considering either Flat Fee or a local Realtor.
I responded with my input.
You didn't understand my concern about liability, and
I explained it again.
You still don't understand it because you say that it's unwarranted for an agent to refuse a commission and risk a law suit by working with a non-represented seller/buyer.
I'm responsible for developing my own business model, and part of that model is that I do not work with non-represented buyers or sellers. And the reason is very simple; there is too much liability risk that I'm not willing to accept.
As I said, I have no issue with anyone wanting to sell their own home by themselves, or anyone selling it through a flat fee listing. And again I sincerely wish you success in selling your home quickly.
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but anxious to transition into our future home before the holidays as my husband's work draws us back to California.
Ooops....
Captain Bill...
The negativity from realtors to sellers doing FSBO or flat fee is unwarranted and unjustified as long as the seller is willing to do the 3-4%.
When the housing market has been through so much...
