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Old 01-14-2012, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andros 1337 View Post
BTW, I just learned that prior to the 1990 Census, the Phoenix Metropolitan Statistical Area did not include Pinal County; it was added after the 1990 Census.
Then the question is why. Did they not look at a map?
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Old 01-14-2012, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by observer53 View Post
Then the question is why. Did they not look at a map?
Again, there is reason to the decision to add Pinal county. These designations are MORE than just geographic boundaries, it has to do with economics and spending.

Counties are added depending on economic ties and employment, as decided by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget, NOT the census bureau. The census bureau only uses the designations for statistics, they do not place boundaries. Pinal County is part of the Phoenix MSA as it has more economic ties to the Phoenix area than the Tucson area, and does not have an employment core of its own. Many of the people that live in this region commute to the Phoenix area to do business and work.

Pinal was probably added after growth in the region made it to where a sizable percentage of the population had some sort of economic tie to the Phoenix area.
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodyW View Post
Again, there is reason to the decision to add Pinal county. These designations are MORE than just geographic boundaries, it has to do with economics and spending.

Counties are added depending on economic ties and employment, as decided by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget, NOT the census bureau. The census bureau only uses the designations for statistics, they do not place boundaries. Pinal County is part of the Phoenix MSA as it has more economic ties to the Phoenix area than the Tucson area, and does not have an employment core of its own. Many of the people that live in this region commute to the Phoenix area to do business and work.

Pinal was probably added after growth in the region made it to where a sizable percentage of the population had some sort of economic tie to the Phoenix area.

But the southern half of the county has NO particular ties to Phoenix. People don't commute from Mammoth, or Oracle, or San Manuel, or Kearny, and other towns in that area to work, they don't come here to shop. Those areas are more tied to Tucson. Sorry, it still makes no sense. They could have found a way with other existing boundaries to make a more logical connection, if economics is part of their plan.

They aren't going to change it, and I don't care if they don't, but that doesn't mean it makes any real sense.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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I can see your point. But the population center of that county is mostly in its northern reaches. If there were more people living in Southern Pinal, commuting to Tucson than there were people in the north commuting to Phoenix, the data would skew the other way.

It may be complex, but it does make sense after a while (well, this is what I'm majoring in at NAU..), and it is done for a reason.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodyW View Post
I can see your point. But the population center of that county is mostly in its northern reaches. If there were more people living in Southern Pinal, commuting to Tucson than there were people in the north commuting to Phoenix, the data would skew the other way.

It may be complex, but it does make sense after a while (well, this is what I'm majoring in at NAU..), and it is done for a reason.

I'm sure there is a reason. I'm also sure that not everyone looking at the data (whatever set of data that might be) for information about what they think of as metro Phoenix understands that what they are looking at includes info about communities that are not like metro Phoenix at all in terms of income, age/ethnic demographics, and other factors (right now, I don't remember all the things the census looks at) that may skew the picture a bit.

But, back to the original question, since they have a reason, or reason, for doing as they do, they are not going to change their definition, and it doesn't have to match the way people here define the Phoenix metro for their own purposes. So, moving on....
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Studio City, CA 91604
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A Metropolitan Statistical Area is defined by the federal government (U.S. Office of Budget Management) to be comprised of a county where there is a large urban core and the communities in surrounding counties that commute to said urban core. Once the commuter level from a given county to the urban core crosses a certain threshold, it is considered part of the Metropolitan Statistical Area -- whether it geographically makes sense or not.

Another example of this is San Joaquin County in California, which is located in the Central Valley about 55 miles east of San Francisco. It is comprised largely of agricultural land plus bedroom communities like Tracy, Lodi, Mountain House and Patterson and it's largest city, Stockton.

San Joaquin County was recently adjoined to the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose Metropolitan Statistical Area. If you've ever been to San Joaquin County you know that it has almost nothing in common (physically, geographically and politically) with San Francisco, San Jose, Marin County, Walnut Creek, Palo Alto, etc....HOWEVER...the federal Office of Budget Management had determined that the commuter threshold from San Joaquin County into the Bay Area had reached such levels as to consider it an outlying part of the SF-OK-SJ Metro area.

Closer to home for you Arizona folks is Mohave County in the northwest corner of your state. Did you know that it is considered part of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Statistical Area, even though it's an Arizona county?

Why? Because enough people in Bullhead City, Fort Mohave and Kingman cross the Colorado River everyday to work in the casinos in Laughlin, which is in Clark County, which is anchored by Las Vegas.[/quote]

Last edited by observer53; 12-18-2013 at 12:51 AM.. Reason: no edit done
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kttam186290 View Post
A Metropolitan Statistical Area is defined by the federal government (U.S. Office of Budget Management) to be comprised of a county where there is a large urban core and the communities in surrounding counties that commute to said urban core. Once the commuter level from a given county to the urban core crosses a certain threshold, it is considered part of the Metropolitan Statistical Area -- whether it geographically makes sense or not.

Another example of this is San Joaquin County in California, which is located in the Central Valley about 55 miles east of San Francisco. It is comprised largely of agricultural land plus bedroom communities like Tracy, Lodi, Mountain House and Patterson and it's largest city, Stockton.

San Joaquin County was recently adjoined to the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose Metropolitan Statistical Area. If you've ever been to San Joaquin County you know that it has almost nothing in common (physically, geographically and politically) with San Francisco, San Jose, Marin County, Walnut Creek, Palo Alto, etc....HOWEVER...the federal Office of Budget Management had determined that the commuter threshold from San Joaquin County into the Bay Area had reached such levels as to consider it an outlying part of the SF-OK-SJ Metro area.

Closer to home for you Arizona folks is Mohave County in the northwest corner of your state. Did you know that it is considered part of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Statistical Area, even though it's an Arizona county?

Why? Because enough people in Bullhead City, Fort Mohave and Kingman cross the Colorado River everyday to work in the casinos in Laughlin, which is in Clark County, which is anchored by Las Vegas.

Actually, your examples are Combined Statistical Areas (CSAs), not Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs). A CSA is generally a looser grouping than an MSA, where there are enough commuting patterns between neighboring MSAs (or Micropolitan Statistical areas or micBullBoxer31), but not enough for it form one large MSA. San Joaquin County is part of the San Francisco Bay Area CSA, not the San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward MSA. San Joaquin County forms its own MSA (the Stockton-Lodi MSA), which forms a part of the San Francisco Bay Area CSA. There are 7 MSAs that form the San Francisco Bay Area CSA (San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, Stockton-Lodi, Santa Rosa, Vallejo-Fairfield, Santa Cruz-Watsonville, and Napa).

On the other hand, the Phoenix MSA, which consists of both Maricopa and Pinal Counties, isn't part of any CSA. Certainly there is enough commuting patterns from some Pinal County communities such as Apache Junction, San Tan Valley, and the Pinal County portions of Queen Creek to warrant its inclusion in the Phoenix MSA. Other Pinal County communities such as Casa Grande are somewhat split in commuters between the Phoenix and Tucson MSAs, but as a whole there are far more commuters in Pinal County commuting into Phoenix than there are commuting into Tucson, and there isn't really a core city in Pinal County that would make it its own MSA or microSA either.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Avondale and Tempe, Arizona
2,852 posts, read 4,079,295 times
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All of Pinal County and even all of Maricopa County shouldn't be part of metropolitan Phoenix for common sense purposes, at least not the isolated desert areas and smaller rural towns.

I don't see why counties can't be split up to define the boundaries of a metropolitan area.

As it is now the western borderline of metropolitan Phoenix should end about where Buckeye is because most of Maricopa County west of there is desert land.

Then extend the boundaries as needed when development overtakes the empty desert.

Last edited by Java Jolt; 12-18-2013 at 09:46 AM.. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Willo Historic District, Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java Jolt View Post
All of Pinal County and even all of Maricopa County shouldn't be part of metropolitan Phoenix for common sense purposes, at least not the isolated desert areas and smaller rural towns.

I don't see why counties can't be split up to define the boundaries of a metropolitan area.

As it is now the western borderline of metropolitan Phoenix should end about where Buckeye is because most of Maricopa County west of there is desert land.

Then extend the boundaries as needed when deveopment overtakes the empty desert.
Agreed. Using entire counties might make sense in the east, but out here counties are often larger than some states.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
6,348 posts, read 9,866,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java Jolt View Post
All of Pinal County and even all of Maricopa County shouldn't be part of metropolitan Phoenix for common sense purposes, at least not the isolated desert areas and smaller rural towns.

I don't see why counties can't be split up to define the boundaries of a metropolitan area.

As it is now the western borderline of metropolitan Phoenix should end about where Buckeye is because most of Maricopa County west of there is desert land.

Then extend the boundaries as needed when development overtakes the empty desert.
The problem is where to draw the lines and how frequently they would need to be redrawn to keep up with growth in the exurbs. Note that Pinal County was added to the metropolitan area in the 1993 redefinitions of metropolitan areas, prior to that the metropolitan area included only Maricopa County.
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