Downtown Scottsdale is livelier than Downtown Phoenix!! (construction, gated)

[Goober13]

The urban sprawl phenomenon has been an issue here since the later 50's. I was born and raised here, and the abundance of available land which is privately owned has caused this place to be overbuilt.

Downtown here if you look at the pictures from long time residents on this thread, you can see what the downtown looked like and how it was bustling. Then in the late fifties when Park Central Mall opened. and in 1961 when Chris Town Mall opened, the retail moved and the downtown died.

What you see in downtown Phoenix now is a totally rebuilt version. That is why there is no shopping. Instead of Phoenix retaining a thriving business and retail center downtown connected by a light rail or subway, shopping centers and tract homes and a suburban lifestyle became the norm, with people looking for convenience, over patronizing a thriving downtown and urban core.

Old buildings had little value here, always being torn down for newer structures.

Scottsdale had always been a tourist and resort area, which attracted money from all over the country and world, and that is why it has been preserved and constantly renovated. Fashion Square Mall was built in 1961 or so and was an outdoor mall with a grocery store and drug store, but turned into what it is now after multiple renovations and additions.The last piece of history at the mall, Robinsons May dept store was torn down a few years ago and replaced by Barney's New York.

The excessive urban sprawl here coupled with allowing more centrally located middle class areas to decline, instead of being remodeled, will be the demise of the Phoenix metro area. Building housing and retail farther and farther away from the urban core, with a weak public transportation system is a recipe for disaster.

[JayManne]

I live in downtown Phoenix, three blocks from the baseball park. It's true: if you are a tourist, Phoenix is a non-destination. You might go to the baseball park, the Hurd Meuseum is a top destination, and there are a few other things to see, but it's really Scottsdale and the outer city you want to be at.

Phoenix has gotten much better, but it was a total slum 15 years ago. Now they are building and revitalizing downtown Phoenix, but it will take decades just to get to where Scottsdale is now.

That being said, downtown Phoenix is a great place to live.

[synapse]

Originally Posted by JayManne

Phoenix has gotten much better, but it was a total slum 15 years ago. Now they are building and revitalizing downtown Phoenix, but it will take decades just to get to where Scottsdale is now.

And yet, the great thing about downtown Phoenix is just a few years ago nobody would have said that. It's clearly on the upswing. Even in a recession new restaurants and bars and hotels are opening, and you see more people walking around day to day. That's a terrific sign.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Keep in mind, though, that when large buildings go up something is typically destroyed. Some have talked about joining downtown and uptown over time with massive building. That means lots of business' and homes gone for the "sake of the city". I'm happy there's some NIMBY action in Phoenix. There's no one to fight eminent domain type stuff without them.

The kind of NIMBYism I'm referring to relates to these ridiculous protests & lawsuits. They are a complete waste of time & taxyapers' dollars, and are really unnecessary. Often, it is people upset with their view of the mountains being obstructed, or their sunshine being blocked out. I mean, come on! Some of these NIMBYS get so upset about a few highrise buildings that they spend seemingly every moment of their lives protesting progress. A good example of this was the proposed Trump Tower ... a 20 story building (barely a highrise) that would have been built in the Camelback Corridor. The ones who lived near there protested so loudly & often that the Trump Corporation eventually backed out of the deal.

Another example of NIMBYism out of control was the proposed W project downtown. There was a Chinese group upset that one of the buildings would be altered because it was supposedly part of a Chinatown that Phoenix had a long time ago. These developments which the NIMBYs protest would actually improve the aesthetics of the surrounding area, and even appreciate property values. But when the developers realize they're not wanted & back out, what remains is either some dilapidated structure or an ugly vacant lot. That's what NIMBYism often leads to: nothing being built, and more vacant buildings & lots that actually cause blight for the neighborhoods & property values to depreciate. If you think that kind of NIMBY action is good, so be it.
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Originally Posted by JayManne

I live in downtown Phoenix, three blocks from the baseball park. It's true: if you are a tourist, Phoenix is a non-destination. You might go to the baseball park, the Hurd Meuseum is a top destination, and there are a few other things to see, but it's really Scottsdale and the outer city you want to be at.

Phoenix has gotten much better, but it was a total slum 15 years ago. Now they are building and revitalizing downtown Phoenix, but it will take decades just to get to where Scottsdale is now.

That being said, downtown Phoenix is a great place to live.

Yes, downtown Phoenix has improved, but it still needs a lot more. What is still lacking is the variety of shopping, dining, and general nightlife like Scottsdale has. Also, for the nation's sixth largest city, downtown still lacks the height that many other large cities have in terms of a well defined skyline. Phoenix needs to have more national and global corporate HQs, as well as some good start up firms located downtown. More hotels would help bring in the tourists as well. Those things alone would require more skyscraper type of buildings, and would really improve the skyline.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Keep in mind, though, that when large buildings go up something is typically destroyed. Some have talked about joining downtown and uptown over time with massive building. That means lots of business' and homes gone for the "sake of the city". I'm happy there's some NIMBY action in Phoenix. There's no one to fight eminent domain type stuff without them.

You are right, blight and old buildings would have been destroyed. And what "homes" are you referring to? Are you referring to the crack houses, prostitution rings, and drop houses? No thanks, we don't need those types of homes.

Joining downtown with uptown and expanding downtown would lead to increased jobs, a greater urban presence and luring of more Fortune 500 companies. NIMBYS have hurt this city more than they have positively impacted it. The NIMBYs tried to eliminate Light Rail, all of the stadiums, expansion of the airport, creation of the 101, I could go on. Thank God, there are enough sane citizens who have moved here in the last two decades that have prevailed over the NIMBYS

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by synapse

And yet, the great thing about downtown Phoenix is just a few years ago nobody would have said that. It's clearly on the upswing. Even in a recession new restaurants and bars and hotels are opening, and you see more people walking around day to day. That's a terrific sign.

I was one of those people defending downtown Phoenix 3 years ago. I was arguing with people trying to convince them that ASU's presence would help rennovate downtown and people didn't believe it.

The reason I knew it would work this time is the strategy employed was different. In the past, they thought they could rebuild downtown by simply putting up apartments and condos. That strategy failed because the cost of that housing was expensive and outside of housing, there was really no reason to live there. Even if you worked there, people could still commute to there from other areas. With college and graduate school, your life is much more institutionalized within the campus itself and most students prefer to live on-site. I still remember when they put Jefferson on Central in 1999 and bragged that it would be the mecca of housing that combined with the Arizona Center and its fine offerings (Moondoggies anyone?). I knew instantly it was going to be a failure. With ASU's expansion, they provided a reason for students to reside there. As ASU's graduate schools further establish themselves in downtown and as the student body continues to see that other students are residing there, the area will continue to grow.

[Java Jolt]

Downtown Phoenix has improved so much since I moved here. If you think it's a deadzone now you should have seen it 15 years ago.

Scottsdale really isn't much livelier, it attracts lots of fake fashionistas and wannabe millionaires and it has some good bars, restaurants, and clubs but it's mostly dead after midnight except on Friday nights and weekends.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Downtown Phoenix has improved so much since I moved here. If you think it's a deadzone now you should have seen it 15 years ago.

Scottsdale really isn't much livelier, it attracts lots of fake fashionistas and wannabe millionaires and it has some good bars, restaurants, and clubs but it's mostly dead after midnight except on Friday nights and weekends.

I agree that downtown Phoenix has improved since a decade or two ago, but there still is a lot of work to be done in order to make it what it should be by now. There really needs to be a good mix of other amenities, and that can start with competitive jobs via reputable corporations establishing some kind of base in downtown Phoenix. That would encourage more highrise development in terms of office towers, and even more residental and hotel skyscrapers. I think more of a large corporate/financial presence would encourage more people to live and play downtown as well. In addition, the nightlife needs to be better. When suburban Scottsdale and Tempe have better dining, drinking, and shopping choices than the downtown area of nation's sixth largest city, that should raise some concerns.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

There was a Chinese group upset that one of the buildings would be altered because it was supposedly part of a Chinatown that Phoenix had a long time ago.

Supposedly? Aside from the rest of the discussion, are you suggesting that this was made up?

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

Supposedly? Aside from the rest of the discussion, are you suggesting that this was made up?

Well, when did Phoenix ever have a significant, established Chinatown like San Francisco or New York City? I'll tell you when: NEVER. My previous point was that the downtown W Hotel project was all set to break ground until the NIMBYs butted in and stopped it. Their complaint was that one of the buildings, which is nothing more than a run down structure, would seriously alter a piece of Phoenix's historic Chinatown. Again, there never was a Chinatown in Phoenix ... and even so, what business to NIMBYs have to meddle in private business? They have no ownership or investment in these projects they try to stop, so they need to let progress happen, or else move to a smaller city where there is less progress to whine about!