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Way too many people think everyone, regardless of their education/sills/experience should be making a living wage.
No, it's the opposite. Way too few people think a living wage should be available for almost all of our people. In Germany, workers make much more money without college degrees and they produce world-class products that can be exported anywhere. Seen a German car drive by recently? Where are Arizona cars in Germany? - The problem is that many people here think only the top 20% should make a living wage. We could do much better in the 40s-70s right here in this country, having great income equality and income growths for all - the rich and the poor, the skillfull and the less so. There is no reason to think we cannot do so again, but the first thing required is that people like you wake up and stop denying it. This is pure ignorance at work. It's like as soon as something is older than 5 years people forget how it was and how we did it.
You can't compare today to the 40's-70s as people in those years had a much better work ethic and there were not as many lazy and incompetent people as we have today. Certainly not everyone making a low wage is lazy or incompetent but there is a much higher percentage today then there was in those years. People were a lot less adverse to hard work back in those years. People in those years didn't have the education they have today and there needs to be an incentive to educate yourself and make yourself competitive for higher paying jobs, etc.
You've simplified the argument way too much. There are way too many people today that have no desire to improve their lot in life and want to be compensated at the same level as those who work hard to improve themselves and make themselves more competitive.
I have a very close family member that has been in the workforce for 30 years, has no education past high school, and wants very little responsibility or stress. This family member is still doing clerical work for $14 an hour yet could be doing so much better had they been willing to pick up a little education over the last 30 years, apply for higher paying jobs using their experience and work history, etc. This is the case with so many people out there, they want higher wages but are not willing to do the necessary things to get a higher wage. I listen to this person complain about their wage and I roll my eyes because they earn the wage they have chosen to earn. The sister of this person continues to take steps to better herself, she applies for higher paying jobs capitalizing on her experience, has taken some college over the last 30 years and has worked herself up to the Director level and makes nearly four times what the other family member makes. They both had the exact same opportunities growing up and the one making $14 an hour has had much better opportunities for an education and experience over the last 30 years but has chosen to not capitalize on these opportunities.
We need to reward people for their efforts, not just pay them for showing up. I'm not saying wages are where they need to be in this country as I don't feel wages have kept up with inflation over the years but this is an overall problem, not a problem between those on the bottom and those on the top.
In Germany, workers make much more money without college degrees and they produce world-class products that can be exported anywhere. Seen a German car drive by recently? Where are Arizona cars in Germany? - The problem is that many people here think only the top 20% should make a living wage. We could do much better in the 40s-70s right here in this country, having great income equality and income growths for all - the rich and the poor, the skillfull and the less so. There is no reason to think we cannot do so again, but the first thing required is that people like you wake up and stop denying it. This is pure ignorance at work. It's like as soon as something is older than 5 years people forget how it was and how we did it.
Are you from Germany or lived there longer then 5 years? If not, please stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS
You can't compare today to the 40's-70s as people in those years had a much better work ethic and there were not as many lazy and incompetent people as we have today. Certainly not everyone making a low wage is lazy or incompetent but there is a much higher percentage today then there was in those years. People were a lot less adverse to hard work back in those years. People in those years didn't have the education they have today and there needs to be an incentive to educate yourself and make yourself competitive for higher paying jobs, etc.
You've simplified the argument way too much. There are way too many people today that have no desire to improve their lot in life and want to be compensated at the same level as those who work hard to improve themselves and make themselves more competitive.
I have a very close family member that has been in the workforce for 30 years, has no education past high school, and wants very little responsibility or stress. This family member is still doing clerical work for $14 an hour yet could be doing so much better had they been willing to pick up a little education over the last 30 years, apply for higher paying jobs using their experience and work history, etc. This is the case with so many people out there, they want higher wages but are not willing to do the necessary things to get a higher wage. I listen to this person complain about their wage and I roll my eyes because they earn the wage they have chosen to earn. The sister of this person continues to take steps to better herself, she applies for higher paying jobs capitalizing on her experience, has taken some college over the last 30 years and has worked herself up to the Director level and makes nearly four times what the other family member makes. They both had the exact same opportunities growing up and the one making $14 an hour has had much better opportunities for an education and experience over the last 30 years but has chosen to not capitalize on these opportunities.
We need to reward people for their efforts, not just pay them for showing up. I'm not saying wages are where they need to be in this country as I don't feel wages have kept up with inflation over the years but this is an overall problem, not a problem between those on the bottom and those on the top.
The truth comes out. I love it. You sound like my grandfather. He thought it was like the old days where you didn't need to know the right chain of people or be already setup correctly in life. "oh all those people on unemployment just need to work harder and they'll be better off."
You don't need the right experience or right education. It doesn't matter anymore. The best thing anyone can do is kiss the right ass. That's right. I have stories too, from the IT industry. I know someone that was hired for a developer position over people that had a PhDs, masters, in computer science. I know another person that had all these IT certifications, but because he was a little different, they hired a security guard for an IT security job. No experience, no background in anything. Knew how to be a police officer, not IT security, and knew the IT manager. They were real buddy buddy too. Imagine that. Another example is someone with 1 year experience being a computer technician, no degree, some industry certs. But because he was a manager of a sales group, they hired him as an infrastructure manager, but he isn't managing anyone. But guess what? he knew someone in the company and was buddy buddy with them.
I bet if I wanted my parents to move to NYC, tell them I want to spit shine the CEO of Goldman Sachs shoes growing up, because I want to work for that company company eventually, I would probably work there today.
Last edited by shiphead; 03-19-2014 at 07:50 PM..
Reason: attempts at fixing my grammar
Capitalism depends on a limited amount of high paying middle class jobs while the rest toil away. I work at a grocery store where everyone has degrees. Bachelors and Masters, stocking shelves, bagging groceries. If everyone could go to school and become white collar then who would do the grunt work? Society is skewed to throw the scraps to some and spread the myth to the rest.
You can't compare today to the 40's-70s as people in those years had a much better work ethic and there were not as many lazy and incompetent people as we have today. Certainly not everyone making a low wage is lazy or incompetent but there is a much higher percentage today then there was in those years. People were a lot less adverse to hard work back in those years. People in those years didn't have the education they have today and there needs to be an incentive to educate yourself and make yourself competitive for higher paying jobs, etc.
On what grounds do you base ANY of this? By every measure and in every industry, productivity per worker has increased. We work slightly longer hours now than we did 20-30 years ago (despite the proliferation of part-time jobs). There is no evidence AT ALL that workers today have an inferior work ethic to those of yesteryear.
Not only that, but current generations are vastly more educated than they were even 30 years ago. In the 40s-70s, well less than 20% of the population had a bachelor's degree, while Generations X and Y have graduation rates well in excess of 30%. To the degree that there is an incentive to "educate themselves", they have to a degree no other generation in human history has.
Indeed, I find it amazing that that previous epoch, when unions were powerful and wide-spread and the share of national income going to the lower and middle-class was much higher, is so often praised by the same folks who oppose returning to those policies and values. Indeed, the vision of the future promised by both parties and strived for by those generations was one in which people worked fewer and fewer hours to meet their basic necessities and could still retire at a moderate age. Those people who worked from the 40s-70s are the ones who retired at 55 or 60 and drew modest-but-livable pensions. It's often said that what they had was "unsustainable", but that's not true. It would just require the dreaded R word (redistribution) and part of the equally dreaded S word (Socialism, here meaning "Social Democracy). And, of course, we can't have that!
On what grounds do you base ANY of this? By every measure and in every industry, productivity per worker has increased. We work slightly longer hours now than we did 20-30 years ago (despite the proliferation of part-time jobs). There is no evidence AT ALL that workers today have an inferior work ethic to those of yesteryear.
Not only that, but current generations are vastly more educated than they were even 30 years ago. In the 40s-70s, well less than 20% of the population had a bachelor's degree, while Generations X and Y have graduation rates well in excess of 30%. To the degree that there is an incentive to "educate themselves", they have to a degree no other generation in human history has.
Indeed, I find it amazing that that previous epoch, when unions were powerful and wide-spread and the share of national income going to the lower and middle-class was much higher, is so often praised by the same folks who oppose returning to those policies and values. Indeed, the vision of the future promised by both parties and strived for by those generations was one in which people worked fewer and fewer hours to meet their basic necessities and could still retire at a moderate age. Those people who worked from the 40s-70s are the ones who retired at 55 or 60 and drew modest-but-livable pensions. It's often said that what they had was "unsustainable", but that's not true. It would just require the dreaded R word (redistribution) and part of the equally dreaded S word (Socialism, here meaning "Social Democracy). And, of course, we can't have that!
It's the old trickle-down effect.
Many people are working longer hours these days just to keep their heads above water while the CEOs and upper management get richer and the people who actually do the grunt work get the leftover scraps.
That's the way it's always been but it seems even more so these days.
The thriving middle class was once able to support a family on one income and retire comfortably but now the middle class is squeezed tighter than ever, and retirement seems like a non-existent dream for the ones who are really struggling.
The poster who wrote that education and work skills take a backseat to arse kissing is pretty much correct and that is really a shame.
Last edited by Java Jolt; 03-20-2014 at 06:52 PM..
Reason: spelling correction
Many people are working longer hours these days just to keep their heads above water while the CEOs and upper management get richer and the people who actually do the grunt work get the leftover scraps.
That's the way it's always been but it seems even more so these days.
The thriving middle class was once able to support a family on one income and retire comfortably but now the middle class is squeezed tighter than ever, and retirement seems like a non-existent dream for the ones who are really struggling.
The poster who wrote that education and work skills take a backseat to arse kissing is pretty much correct and that is really a shame.
If we compare apples to apples I bet you'd find things are not so different. The problem is that what you're arguing is an apples to orange comparison as many of the people you consider "really struggling" all have smartphones for the entire family, drive two newer cars, the big screen TV, the computer and ipads, the NFL Sunday Ticket, eat out 3-4 times a week, lives in a 3000 sq ft McMansion, etc. That didn't happen back when "the thriving middle class was once able to support a family on one income and retire comfortably". If people were as thrifty today as they were back then I'd bet a WHOLE LOT MORE families could support a family on one income. The problem today is that everyone thinks they need to have everything they see on TV and many of them are "really struggling" because they are living beyond their means.
If we compare apples to apples I bet you'd find things are not so different. The problem is that what you're arguing is an apples to orange comparison as many of the people you consider "really struggling" all have smartphones for the entire family, drive two newer cars, the big screen TV, the computer and ipads, the NFL Sunday Ticket, eat out 3-4 times a week, lives in a 3000 sq ft McMansion, etc. That didn't happen back when "the thriving middle class was once able to support a family on one income and retire comfortably". If people were as thrifty today as they were back then I'd bet a WHOLE LOT MORE families could support a family on one income. The problem today is that everyone thinks they need to have everything they see on TV and many of them are "really struggling" because they are living beyond their means.
You are completely out of touch with reality. There are people raising children making minimum wage. I knew a lady who made $10 per hour and raises two sons by herself. Her place of employment does not provide her with health insurance. Everything she has, she saves for and any time she endures a setback, it's catastrophic. She has never taken a vacation and this year is the first year she is taking a vacation in 19 years. They are driving to Disneyland.
It's the conservative myth. To conservatives, every poor person is just lazy and exploiting the system. Those on welfare are just lazy and abuse the system by having multiple children. Also, people have enough money but that they just live above their means.
The problem in our society is increased greed. People who own companies and earn a lot of money are accustomed to their lifestyle and income. They don't want to take a hit so it falls on their employees. They start taking away benefits and reduce income. And there are enough desperate and poor people in this society that the rich can pay people low wages and people will accept it. In the past, companies had to provide benefits, pension and others means to provide a LIVING WAGE. Culturally, that is what the standard was. They couldn't afford to provide less because they wouldn't have been able to hire people. It was unheard of for companies to not provide a living wage. Then when foreign competition arose, American companies had to remove these benefits to be able to "compete" What this essentially means is the executives running these companies maintain their incomes while they lay off workers, outsource labor to foreign countries, reduce wages and benefits.When in reality, they won't reduce their wages and distribute it among their employees so they can keep more people employed. They won't accept their levels of profit when they can make mroe at the expense of their employees. And they rationalize their actions by claiming they have a "responsibility to shareholders."
In our company, we provide health insurance. We are not required to do so, even under Obamacare. We could save a lot of money by not providing health insurance and profit sharing. However, our employees are happy. They have been with us for a long time. I've witnessed them put their children through college. I could have made more money by eliminating these benefits and pay low wages but we chose not to do that.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 03-22-2014 at 10:28 PM..
I've never said every poor person is just lazy as I don't feel that way at all. I know (because I see it around me) that there are many people gaming the system that could work if they were not so lazy. My wife can't get her employees to take extra hours because they don't want to go over the limit that would cause them to lose their housing, food stamps, etc. These are employees that are part time and only want to be part time. Luckily she has a couple that want extra hours so she has to rely on two or three of her 45 employees to work the extra hours that are available.
The system is not perfect for sure, however, as I've been saying I'm glad there is the opportunity for more hours for those who want/need them.
It has nothing to do with being conservative, it is simply paying attention to what is going on around me. Funny, in another thread you seemed to acknowledge we have become a society that isn't as "self-responsible" as we once were. That is all I'm saying so I don't understand why you feel I'm so out of touch with reality? Many people are in the situation they are in due to lack of self-responsibility. Not all, but many...
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan.
Of course! In an age when self-responsibility is lacking, there is so much wrong with my post.
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