Two Valley cities among nation's hardest working !!!!

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by LBTRS

I've never said...

It doesn't matter what you said or how you explain your point of view. You are officially the punching bag for everyone's frustration.

The overwhelming majority of people who make too much in other peoples mind are working a lot of hours too. The difference is they are being rewarded for it and they enjoy it. Other folks work a lot of hours because they have to and they continue to fall behind. Some of the people who struggle do assume they should have what others have. A subset of poor people waste their money on smart phones, hang out at the bar, have $50 cable TV packages etc. Yet others don't waste a penny and have to work 2 jobs to barely get by. In short, there are all kinds of examples.

I come from MN which supposedly has some of the best schools in the nation. I watched how so many children coasted in school because they assumed their middle class life would continue. Meanwhile, I often lectured my kids how dog-eat-dog society would become because we are truly in a world economy. I explained that when a motivated society making 20 cents an hour like China, middle class jobs will move overseas. I warned them that anything that can be outsourced will be transferred or sever pricing pressures will be placed on the USA worker. So the coasters (as compared with the kids that strived to be the best that they could be) would be in for a rude awakening when their middle class job disappeared creating even more competition for that minimum skilled job.

Fast forward 20 years and we are seeing what happens when kids didn't apply themselves. Those jobs are going to China, India, Vietnam, Taiwan, Brazil etc. Germany's model works because they design products to be the "best" and a small subset is willing to pay for it. If you are a close 2nd best, that model doesn't work so well. People who are not willing to pay for the best focus on price. Every business class that is taught explains that products in the middle of the pact struggle to stay afloat.

For those of you who fell short of where you want to be in life. Did you give it your all or did you squander several opportunities? If you are really good at something by luck or hard work, chances are you are gainfully employed and doing better than most. The game of life is usually pretty simply. It's like that joke about two campers who see a bear. The one drops his backpack and puts on his sneakers. The other says "you cannot out run a bear." His response was "I only need to outrun you!" That's how I view life. I need to outrun my competition and it really isn't that tough. Most (>50%) don't care to compete until it is to late. I lectured my kids with that lesson and it worked.

With that said, life isn't fair and I never want it to be fair. If it was "fair", we would have to live in Ethiopia then Haiti. After that we would spend some time in a war torn country like Chad or Sudan. When we got our turn to live in the USA, we unfortunately would have to spend some time with a broken family who's father abuses you. Therefore while life isn't perfect, I cherish the fact that I was lucky enough to live in a country where we have 25% of the worlds wealth even though we are 4.5% of the population. That's what happens when people are greedy: they get their unfairshare. If you want some of that for your kids, teach your kids to out run the competition. Work harder and polish their social skills. It's infinitely harder to accomplish a Phoenix middle class lifestyle if you were born in Haiti. Those people have something to b_tch about. If you live here and complain how rough you have it, I'll bet you are responsible for where you are in life. Don't shoot the messenger.

[kwhitegocubs]

"With that said, life isn't fair and I never want it to be fair. If it was "fair", we would have to live in Ethiopia then Haiti. After that we would spend some time in a war torn country like Chad or Sudan."

No. Just no. Global PPP-adjusted GDP per capita ascribed to the average household (3-4 people) would be roughly $35k per household. That's similar to a lower-middle class household here (except equalizing global wealth would make them wealthier in fact). Also, the idea that anyone is personally responsible for their lot in life is just the "just world fallacy" in action.

Nobody chooses their parents, their genetics, their socioeconomic status from birth until adulthood, their exposure to disease, the work ethic instilled them (or not), their neighborhood, the nutrition they are given, the peers they are exposed to, the death of family members, their dialect (For one example, AAVE/Ebonics is as internally consistent as the King's English but one is stigmatized because those who speak it have no normative or economic power), etc... Everything that makes you who you are is ultimately derived entirely from unchosen luck. Everything else is just justification for inequality that benefits the person justifying it (and all below it being unjustified if flowing to others).

[LBTRS]

It is so much easier to blame the things you can't control for your lot in life than it is to hold yourself accountable to the things you can control. If what you say were true kwhitegocubs then no one could overcome their circumstances and succeed when everything didn't go perfect in their life.

I'd love to say more but the thread will get locked if I do so I'm going to leave it at that.

[shiphead]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Those people have something to b_tch about. If you live here and complain how rough you have it, I'll bet you are responsible for where you are in life. Don't shoot the messenger.

You're absolutely right. I am responsible for living in a box for 20 years, I am not talking about jail either. I am lucky to even have had a bed with a window. After those 20 years in a box, I worked on some skills, people say learn computers and you'll go places. I learn my fair share of it, 10 years later, all jobs that I could have had were outsourced. Victory. Now I get to start over. Let's see, get some certs and get a job. Nope they want the next level, get those certs, nope they want the next level. Seems that the market is flooded with these "professionals." Very interesting. Now if I started with the certificates 10 years ago I would be in a much better place.

I think a few things children need to understand. Do not share, barter. Learn the best way to take advantage of people. Lastly, be extremely good at a broad subject, math, physics, computer science, plumbing, electrical, etc. Teaching them anything else is a pipe dream.

Originally Posted by LBTRS

I'd love to say more but the thread will get locked if I do so I'm going to leave it at that.

As long as it isn't a direct attack, don't be bashful about it, say it.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs

Nobody chooses their parents, their genetics, their socioeconomic status from birth until adulthood, their exposure to disease, the work ethic instilled them (or not), their neighborhood, the nutrition they are given, the peers they are exposed to, the death of family members, their dialect (For one example, AAVE/Ebonics is as internally consistent as the King's English but one is stigmatized because those who speak it have no normative or economic power), etc... Everything that makes you who you are is ultimately derived entirely from unchosen luck. Everything else is just justification for inequality that benefits the person justifying it (and all below it being unjustified if flowing to others).

In my world, the glass is 1/2 full. Others think it it's 1/2 empty including those who blame it on "unchosen" luck. Just go to any classroom in the Phoenix metro area and look how hard the kids are trying. Most (>50%) are not striving to try hard even in the best neighborhoods. They simply don't believe that it is a dog-eat-dog world. I'm not talking about the kids that were disabled, that grew up with a abusive father and drug addicted mother etc. I get why they "are where they are". They were dealt 5's and 7's in life's deck of cards. Families in Haiti were dealt 2's and 3's. Folks in the best Scottsdale neighborhoods were dealt King's and Ace's. But many kids (dare I say most) in Scottsdale squander their edge and become coasters. Folks, it isn't going to get any easier as we move forward another generation. More of the world wants what we have and some cultures are willing to work harder and for less money.

Family culture is a big deal. Like the Vietnamese boat family era were dealt 2's and 3's and took advantage of their opportunities and their kids are kicking butt. It's their culture and positive attitude. Same goes with families that have arrived here from India. Again, they are striving to do their very best. Their culture views the glass as 1/2 full and would love nothing more than to compete with that Scottsdale family. Hard work that focuses on your skills at an early age trumps living in that Scottsdale neighborhood. So if you are following, family culture (that expects performance) IMHO is the most important factor at probably success. So you could be poor and still end up at the top of the heap. That's the American dream I'm talking about that you so easily dismiss. It happens often for those who chase that dream and it certainly isn't defined by luck.

The "glass is 1/2 full" types (in the spirit of "compassion") want to dismiss all the failure on the wrongs in our society. Knock it off. Instill some accountability in your fellow Phoenicians at every level versus giving them an excuse as to why they fell short.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by shiphead

You're absolutely right. I am responsible for living in a box for 20 years, I am not talking about jail either. I am lucky to even have had a bed with a window. After those 20 years in a box, I worked on some skills, people say learn computers and you'll go places. I learn my fair share of it, 10 years later, all jobs that I could have had were outsourced. Victory. Now I get to start over. Let's see, get some certs and get a job. Nope they want the next level, get those certs, nope they want the next level. Seems that the market is flooded with these "professionals." Very interesting. Now if I started with the certificates 10 years ago I would be in a much better place.

I don't know you other than what you post so I could be way off on this one. But I'm getting an inkle that you are a little negative. My free advice is figure out a way to stay mostly positive. I for one would not hire a talented negative person. I've learned to stay away from people who are negative because they bring other people down. The can-do attitude is what helps make people winners. Study the most successful people and mimic the small things. You don't need to be the best: only better than most (50% in your industry).

Shiphead, I sincerely wish you the best!

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by LBTRS

It is so much easier to blame the things you can't control for your lot in life than it is to hold yourself accountable to the things you can control. If what you say were true kwhitegocubs then no one could overcome their circumstances and succeed when everything didn't go perfect in their life.

I'd love to say more but the thread will get locked if I do so I'm going to leave it at that.

I don't see anyone trying to pass the blame, we're simply stating the facts.

The middle class and working class are working longer hours, and not necessarily because they want all the latest fad toys, it's because average wages are not keeping up with the general cost of living.

[shiphead]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I don't know you other than what you post so I could be way off on this one. But I'm getting an inkle that you are a little negative. My free advice is figure out a way to stay mostly positive. I for one would not hire a talented negative person. I've learned to stay away from people who are negative because they bring other people down. The can-do attitude is what helps make people winners. Study the most successful people and mimic the small things. You don't need to be the best: only better than most (50% in your industry).

Shiphead, I sincerely wish you the best!

Well played troll. Well played.