Question about effects of immigration change in Jan 2008... (Phoenix, Tucson: crime, find a job)

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by questioner2

I suspect the law will be overturned by the ultra liberal court of appeals in San Francisco, but in the mean time I suspect that you will see very little changing. Only a small number of Arizona employers even know about the new law and have not registered for the E verify program. They will continue to operate pretty much as before becaue they know just because there is a law does not mean that anyone will actually enforce it.

It may not come down exactly this way, but the bottom line is that anyone who thinks they are going to wake up on New Years Day (this year or any year) and find a "Day without a Mexican" is dreaming.

As for lettuce, farmers have been able to get as many foreign pickers as they want for years LEGALLY. They do have to do paperwork, pay minimum wage and provide living and transportation items as well and that cuts into profits. Longer term, technology can provide automated solutions same as it has in every other industry where labor costs are dominant. The same thing - it will raise costs and destroy the agricultural economy - was said to argue against ending slavery.

But I remain skeptical.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

As for lettuce, farmers have been able to get as many foreign pickers as they want for years LEGALLY. They do have to do paperwork, pay minimum wage and provide living and transportation items as well and that cuts into profits.

C'mon, Ponderosa, you had to rain on my get-rich-quick lettuce dreams on New Year's Eve...

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

It may not come down exactly this way, but the bottom line is that anyone who thinks they are going to wake up on New Years Day (this year or any year) and find a "Day without a Mexican" is dreaming.

I have seen no one - NO ONE even remotely suggest such a thing -

As for the growers, they will survive - of that I have no problem - the pro illegal folks are making much to do about nada

[londonbarcelona]

[quote=5genAZ;2376415][color=#000080]Funny how many people buy into the rhetoric! Being a 5th Generation AZ (from Rural farming area) its sad that people actually believe that illegal's do the jobs Americans wont do. Illegal's took the jobs that teenagers use to do.In the 80s when I was a teenager, teenagers would work the farm fields usually family owned farmed, teenagers worked at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, teenagers babysat, cleaned houses, mowed lawns, painted elderly homes and so on. You don't have to pay them 15dollars an hour if you didn't spoil them and hand them money every time they asked, put them to work. Wonder why kids are fat and lazy? What does your teenager do? Stay at home, play video games, those that want jobs have to compete with those that shouldn't be here. Now our teenagers have no work experience to get part time employment in college have bad attitudes and live at home till they are 30. I hope this law is actually enforced, unlike our existing laws.

Finally! A voice of reason and experience. I agree 100% with what you said. Those of us who have lived here have seen the change. Before I moved to AZ, the last thing I ever would have thought about was a landscaper and housecleaner. Plus - having two kids who don't expect to work! What you said makes every bit of sense. It's a strange environment that Phoenix fosters. Not all of AZ is like this place. Phoenix and California are the two places where it's "normal" to have others do the work that you would normally do yourself. I'm not sure if this is a good thing.....

[boomergirl]

I think if welfare didn't pay so well, people would work for less.

[azgardener]

It will be a bumpy road but I hope the goverment sticks to its guns to see it through. I have a gardening service and all my employees are legal american citizens. It was not easy but it gets easier every day. Americans do the work and they do it smarter than the hispanics. So while I pay a bit more for my labor I make up for it with less equipment damage, fewer mistakes in the field, more piece of mind.

The "secret" is that no one likes to be the outcast. My guys would not be welcome on a traditional hispanic crew and would be quickly abused to the point of quiting or labled as worthless to management. I know because I came up through the ranks a the only white guy in a company. I get terrific response to my advertisements because I subtley let them know they will be working with other citizens. Everyone gets along great we all enjoy coming to work, thats the enviroment we need to foster. It is nearly impossible to do in a large compamy that is currenly run with a mixture of legal and legal hispanics.

Regardless of the new law, this is the way I will run my company. I just hope they enforce the law so my family and I will have less problems at the emergency room and with auto insurance an the other areas of life that the illegals impact on us here daily.

[sindey]

I'm curious if anyone knows what will happen when someone knowingly hires illegals?

Do they get a fine?
If a business is shut down won't that hurt legal employess and put them out of work?

[bigd4535]

Originally Posted by mrkool

This post is a perfect example of the problem. Too many materialistic and self-centered Americans are willing to sacrifice their borders, language, and culture just for cheaper goods, cheaper dining out, cheap maid service, and so forth.
The overall negative impact of illegal immigration (high crime rates, high illegitimacy, very high drop out rates, unsafe and underperforming schools, demands on healthcare, rising rates of exotic diseases, etc) is not worth the few benefits the illegals bring us.
And it ain't about racism.. it's about behavior. If it were white Europeans coming here and having the same negative impact, most of us would be up in arms about that immigration too.
Borders, language, and culture. Important stuff that alot of us care about.
And we're quite willing to pay more for things, or have a little inconvenience, to ensure we remain a stable, viable country. Mexico and most of central America are neither stable nor viable. If we allow the Mexican and central American population here reach a certain critical mass, guess what? Mexico/central America will be re-created right here. And most of us realize that would not be a good thing.

What you don't realize is that you are living in the mecca of self-centered, materialistic Americans. I am from the East Coast where driving 8 miles to get a gallon of milk and vast expanses of tract housing and strip malls are not normal. You people don't realize that your way of life is direct result of the unique position of the United States in the global economy and the hegemony of the U.S. dollar. End trade, end immigration, and your SUV's and McMansions will go too. The best performing economies are those where people do what they can do best. A typical teenager should prepare to go college and find a summer internship, not pick fruit. Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with the social ills currently plaguing this city and the country. NYC has the third highest rate of foreign born residents in the country, yet it is the safest major city in United States and the center of global trade and commerce. The new laws allowing police officers to ask a persons legal status and the ban on employing an undocumented worker are all examples of how racism and xenophobia have blinded people to the importance of immigration (legal and illegal) for the economy. The high crime and under-performing schools in the Phoenix area are due to unchecked levels of growth. Because there is no concept of culture or community here, people resort to illegal activities and drug use to fill their empty lives. How can the police make their presence known within a community when they are stuck in their cars because the "community" is about ten square meters in area? And the growing number of insured Americans has more to do with the greed of the government than illegal immigrants with "exotic diseases" placing demands on our non-existent national healthcare system.

[sweettearose]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

YES

I rather liked the way life was here in Phoenix 15 -20 years ago. I'd take those days back in a heartbeat.

The city didn't even have a highway system. I remember having to take Pima road to drive to Mesa. It was a 2 hour drive. That same drive today would take me 20-30 minutes. But I suppose if you are into the simple small town life, Phoenix would have been more appealing then

[sweettearose]

Originally Posted by bigd4535

The high crime and under-performing schools in the Phoenix area are due to unchecked levels of growth. Because there is no concept of culture or community here, people resort to illegal activities and drug use to fill their empty lives. How can the police make their presence known within a community when they are stuck in their cars because the "community" is about ten square meters in area? And the growing number of insured Americans has more to do with the greed of the government than illegal immigrants with "exotic diseases" placing demands on our non-existent national healthcare system.

I'm from NY originally, the upper east side actually. And even in my neighborhood, we were aware of how a significant portion of the city was dangerous and full of crime. Community and culture have nothing to do with it. If you venture to the poor areas of the city, you will see all that. A lot of people assume NY is safe because they see the happy faces in Times Square on the Today show but NY has a lot of crime. This has to do with socio-economic principles than the fact that brownstone houses are next to one another. There is a lot of human trafficking from several European and Asian countries in addition to the development of foreign gangs and non-Mafia organized crime groups like the Yakuza and Russian mob.

The biggest problem with Phoenix is the lack of jobs. There is not a large enough white-collar educated class in the city. It's those people who invest in education and develop schools because they will insist on their children receiving the highest education possible. With the creation of those schools, companies and other educated elite will move to Phoenix knowing their children will be in good hands. My personal theory is that Phoenix' lack of a downtown has inhibited the creation of these jobs.