Where would you put a third commercial airport in the Phoenix area? (Tucson: employment, to buy)

[ElleTea]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could find sky harbor confusing for pickup/drop off........

It absolutely is. The signs don't point to the right lanes for this or that, or it tells you to be in the left lane, but at the last minute you were supposed to be in the right. The pickup ramp for Terminal 4 coming from the east is hidden as well; I have missed that dumb ramp more than once coming in from the cell phone lot and have to circle.


A friend who travels in and out of that airport at least once a month has said the same thing. It's like they spent a lot of time on the inside of the terminals, which are very nice with some pretty great restaurants, but the automobile traffic outside was an afterthought.

[ElleTea]

Originally Posted by LBTRS

Isn't that the truth, easiest airport I've dealt with getting in and out of. I actually don't mind picking up people from the airport here.

Completely disagree. MacCarran would definitely win for easiest. That airport is very well designed from the layout of the terminals to the pickup/dropoff to the rental car facility and shuttle that goes with it.


Sky Harbor is a real mess compared to LAS and most other airports I have flown into and out of.

[ElleTea]

Originally Posted by Bates419

I'm having trouble understanding why you still live in AZ,you seem to hate almost everything about this place??

Trust me, I am working on a way out. It takes time, planning, and money!


I have no issue with all of AZ, by the way. Just not a fan of the Phoenix metro at all.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by ElleTea

Trust me, I am working on a way out. It takes time, planning, and money!


I have no issue with all of AZ, by the way. Just not a fan of the Phoenix metro at all.

Once you will that Powerball on Saturday night, you'll be buying your own island on the equator!

[hikernut]

Originally Posted by ElleTea

The pickup ramp for Terminal 4 coming from the east is hidden as well; I have missed that dumb ramp more than once coming in from the cell phone lot and have to circle.

Yup, that one's really bad. Can't see the sign until it's too late to change lanes, in the case one is not already in the far right lane. I've flown in/out of Sky Harbor a lot and also picked up people a lot there; this one still tricks me at times.

[ScottsdaleMark]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

This is the NIMBY/non-progressive philosophy that hurts the Valley. So you don't want to build a major airport that could bring business, jobs and more development to Scottsdale because of "noise" It's this silly mentality that has prevented the Valley from becoming another economic power. Too much of this NIMBY (not in my backyard) mentality has hurt the Valley. The NIMBY's nearly killed light rail, freeway expansion and the Cardinals stadium. We lost Trump property in the early 2000's in the Biltmore because NIMBY's didn't want their "views obstructed" This is why in some ways, I can't wait until the Millenials replace my Boomer generation in the Valley. That next generation is not going to worry about obstructed views or noise. They will want a major airport being the hub of a new exciting carrier.

I guess I don't understand why you think Scottsdale airport (KSDL) is in any way equipped to become a major commercial airport. It has one runway, which as I mentioned is already very busy with private traffic. Additionally, the northern approach comes in directly over the top of a mountain, the southern approach comes in over residential and business areas, and I believe that due to the greater size and noise of large jets, the flight paths / FAA hurdles would be very challenging, also considering its relative proximity to Sky Harbor as well, which is only 15 miles away. Because Sky Harbor is so close, any airlines flying out of KSDL would have to compete directly with Sky Harbor on fares, which would be challenging for them to do.

But ultimately, there just isn't enough available land. KSDL is surrounded by a freeway and significant commercial development that would not be cheap or easy to buy, bulldoze and build over the top of, and if your goal is encourage business...bulldozing a large part of Scottsdale's Airpark business district to build an airport is NOT the way to do it. The Airpark is a tremendous economic engine and I am wholeheartedly opposed to displacing it to expand an airfield.

I like KSDL, I've flown out of there and find it extremely convenient and easy to use for its current purpose. But it is a narrow slice of land around with limited amenities and limited real estate, that I just don't see any way to get too much "more" out of it. Expansion seems to me like a non-starter, and there's only so much you can do with a single runway and limited space for additional buildings/operations. Any expansion of service into regular airline operations would have to be pretty minor in scale based on all of the above, in my opinion, and I do oppose going that route because I assume KSDL will continue to see more and more private aircraft traffic as our region grows and expands.

So in my mind this isn't a NIMBY issue at all, it's a logistics issue. There is already flight noise throughout the day, all day, from the airport, so that NIMBY ship sailed in World War II when they built the airfield.

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleMark

I guess I don't understand why you think Scottsdale airport (KSDL) is in any way equipped to become a major commercial airport. It has one runway, which as I mentioned is already very busy with private traffic. Additionally, the northern approach comes in directly over the top of a mountain, the southern approach comes in over residential and business areas, and I believe that due to the greater size and noise of large jets, the flight paths / FAA hurdles would be very challenging, also considering its relative proximity to Sky Harbor as well, which is only 15 miles away. Because Sky Harbor is so close, any airlines flying out of KSDL would have to compete directly with Sky Harbor on fares, which would be challenging for them to do.

The emboldened part isn't necessarily true, because there is precedent to say otherwise:

-Burbank (BUR) is typically cheaper than LAX.
-Baltimore (BWI) is typically cheaper than Dulles (IAD), and in my experience Reagan (DCA) is the most expensive in that area, but it's also the most convenient to DC.
-Oakland (OAK) is usually cheaper than San Francisco (SFO).
-London City (LCY) is usually the most expensive option in London, whereas Heathrow (LHR) is "cheaper" but the airport taxes are extremely high and it's the busiest in Britain, though Gatwick (LGW) is typically a cheaper alternative and it offers international destinations

In a handful of cities, there are hidden airport codes that let you price alternatives if you try online: "NYC" for all New York area airports, "WAS" for all DC area airports, "LON" for all London airports, "TYO" for all Tokyo airports, "RIO" for both in Rio de Janeiro, etc. Type those in and you'll see fares to numerous airports in the area. You can see that airports within cities don't really compete for fares to a great extent. I think there's more at play in determining fares, such as what people are willing to pay.

[SluggoF16]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleMark

I guess I don't understand why you think Scottsdale airport (KSDL) is in any way equipped to become a major commercial airport. It has one runway, which as I mentioned is already very busy with private traffic. Additionally, the northern approach comes in directly over the top of a mountain, the southern approach comes in over residential and business areas, and I believe that due to the greater size and noise of large jets, the flight paths / FAA hurdles would be very challenging, also considering its relative proximity to Sky Harbor as well, which is only 15 miles away. Because Sky Harbor is so close, any airlines flying out of KSDL would have to compete directly with Sky Harbor on fares, which would be challenging for them to do.

But ultimately, there just isn't enough available land. KSDL is surrounded by a freeway and significant commercial development that would not be cheap or easy to buy, bulldoze and build over the top of, and if your goal is encourage business...bulldozing a large part of Scottsdale's Airpark business district to build an airport is NOT the way to do it. The Airpark is a tremendous economic engine and I am wholeheartedly opposed to displacing it to expand an airfield.

I like KSDL, I've flown out of there and find it extremely convenient and easy to use for its current purpose. But it is a narrow slice of land around with limited amenities and limited real estate, that I just don't see any way to get too much "more" out of it. Expansion seems to me like a non-starter, and there's only so much you can do with a single runway and limited space for additional buildings/operations. Any expansion of service into regular airline operations would have to be pretty minor in scale based on all of the above, in my opinion, and I do oppose going that route because I assume KSDL will continue to see more and more private aircraft traffic as our region grows and expands.

So in my mind this isn't a NIMBY issue at all, it's a logistics issue. There is already flight noise throughout the day, all day, from the airport, so that NIMBY ship sailed in World War II when they built the airfield.

In 1942 when Thunderbird field was built there was no housing nearby. However, by the 1970s the airport was getting busy, receiving a control tower in 1976, but with housing booming across Scottsdale Road as well. When SDL was slated to extend the runway, there was quite a bit of noise from across the road, from MIMBYs hollering about airplanes flying over them. I was one of those pilots, I earned my private certificate at Scottsdale Piper. Runway 03 had a displaced threshold and 21 had right traffic with an immediate turnout. The agreement was that the runway could be exten

[Hschlick84]

Originally Posted by ElleTea

Trust me, I am working on a way out. It takes time, planning, and money!


I have no issue with all of AZ, by the way. Just not a fan of the Phoenix metro at all.

I like AZ and the Phoenix metro itself, easy to drive around on the grid system for roads, haven't been to Skyharbor yet. I'm going to bet Denver International Airport is easier to navigate than Skyharbor.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by Hschlick84

I'm going to bet Denver International Airport is easier to navigate than Skyharbor.

If you know how to read, you should be just fine!