Where would you put a third commercial airport in the Phoenix area? (Tucson: house, high school)

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Hschlick84

I like AZ and the Phoenix metro itself, easy to drive around on the grid system for roads, haven't been to Skyharbor yet. I'm going to bet Denver International Airport is easier to navigate than Skyharbor.

NO no no no it isn't. DIA is a different animal than Sky Harbor.

People who are confused by Sky Harbor are simply easily confused. The whole airport, parking lot etc. is heavily signed you just stay under the arrows and you get where you need to be. It even gives you designations like Central Phoenix--I10,I17, 51 East Valley--202 I10 143 West Valley 10. On top of that if you miss your lane designation, for whatever reason, the signs continue so you can loop back to where you were trying to go. Miss the East Valley? The next sign tells you which lane to be in anyway.
Every single terminal sign lists the airlines and where to park. Every sign is over a corresponding lane, you stay in the lane below the sign. In side the airport are over head signs seemingly every 2 or 3 minutes of walking with clear indicating arrows and staff/security are everywhere.

I'm surprised people are complaining about the airport right now, we have one of the simpler major airports I've ever been to, it's designed like a grouping of long narrow hallways. Sometimes when people aren't happy where they are they choose reasons to continue to be unhappy.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

NO no no no it isn't. DIA is a different animal than Sky Harbor.

People who are confused by Sky Harbor are simply easily confused. The whole airport, parking lot etc. is heavily signed you just stay under the arrows and you get where you need to be. It even gives you designations like Central Phoenix--I10,I17, 51 East Valley--202 I10 143 West Valley 10. On top of that if you miss your lane designation, for whatever reason, the signs continue so you can loop back to where you were trying to go. Miss the East Valley? The next sign tells you which lane to be in anyway.
Every single terminal sign lists the airlines and where to park. Every sign is over a corresponding lane, you stay in the lane below the sign. In side the airport are over head signs seemingly every 2 or 3 minutes of walking with clear indicating arrows and staff/security are everywhere.

I'm surprised people are complaining about the airport right now, we have one of the simpler major airports I've ever been to, it's designed like a grouping of long narrow hallways. Sometimes when people aren't happy where they are they choose reasons to continue to be unhappy.

Basically, PHX is an O&D-focused airport while DEN is a connection-focused airport, which explains their vastly different designs. This explains the direct landside access to all of PHX's terminals, as well as the fact that PHX's people mover is landside while DEN's is airside (although DEN also plans on adding a landside people mover that would connect the main terminal with parking, the rental car center, and the light rail).

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by :-D

You guys are aware that Davis-Monthan, a much larger Air Force Base than Luke, sits arguably six miles away from the Tucson airport? They are separated by some buildings and the I-10.

When I lived further out West in Surprise I was under the jets I heard them often growing up however it would really depend on the flight patterns of Luke to see if Glendale would be a viable option.

Personally though I would agree Goodyear would be a good third option. Further removed from Luke (which is a good thing for those souls who live near there, a lot less planes to hear) and it's closer to the freeways of the West Valley which make it more convenient. However I also like the Deer Valley airport, but I don't know if that's as good of an option compared to Goodyear.

I don't see a need for a third major airport anytime soon.

Even if there becomes a need for one in the future it probably won't be built in Goodyear.

The west valley is usually shunned when it comes to progress especially transportation.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

I don't see a need for a third major airport anytime soon.

Even if there becomes a need for one in the future it probably won't be built in Goodyear.

The west valley is usually shunned when it comes to progress especially transportation.

The West Valley has one major suburb and it's Glendale. Glendale has a recent history of bad business dealing that scarred the whole area as it's really the only city that could afford what is being done in Central and East areas of town.

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

The West Valley has one major suburb and it's Glendale. Glendale has a recent history of bad business dealing that scarred the whole area as it's really the only city that could afford what is being done in Central and East areas of town.

Glendale's problems aren't relevant to the topic.

The west valley is the fastest-growing area and there's going to be a demand for more expansive mass transit and even larger airports in the future.

The west valley as a whole is still pushed to the side when it comes to upgrading the infrastructure even with all the exploding growth.

As of now there's no need for a third major airport in the Phoenix area, but when it comes time for one in the future I will bet the west valley will be low on the list or even off the list.

[SluggoF16]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleMark

I guess I don't understand why you think Scottsdale airport (KSDL) is in any way equipped to become a major commercial airport. It has one runway, which as I mentioned is already very busy with private traffic. Additionally, the northern approach comes in directly over the top of a mountain, the southern approach comes in over residential and business areas, and I believe that due to the greater size and noise of large jets, the flight paths / FAA hurdles would be very challenging, also considering its relative proximity to Sky Harbor as well, which is only 15 miles away. Because Sky Harbor is so close, any airlines flying out of KSDL would have to compete directly with Sky Harbor on fares, which would be challenging for them to do.

But ultimately, there just isn't enough available land. KSDL is surrounded by a freeway and significant commercial development that would not be cheap or easy to buy, bulldoze and build over the top of, and if your goal is encourage business...bulldozing a large part of Scottsdale's Airpark business district to build an airport is NOT the way to do it. The Airpark is a tremendous economic engine and I am wholeheartedly opposed to displacing it to expand an airfield.

I like KSDL, I've flown out of there and find it extremely convenient and easy to use for its current purpose. But it is a narrow slice of land around with limited amenities and limited real estate, that I just don't see any way to get too much "more" out of it. Expansion seems to me like a non-starter, and there's only so much you can do with a single runway and limited space for additional buildings/operations. Any expansion of service into regular airline operations would have to be pretty minor in scale based on all of the above, in my opinion, and I do oppose going that route because I assume KSDL will continue to see more and more private aircraft traffic as our region grows and expands.

So in my mind this isn't a NIMBY issue at all, it's a logistics issue. There is already flight noise throughout the day, all day, from the airport, so that NIMBY ship sailed in World War II when they built the airfield.

Somehow my earlier post was cut off. The completed form:


In 1942 when Thunderbird field was built there was no housing nearby. However, by the 1970s the airport was getting busy, receiving a control tower in 1976, but with housing booming across Scottsdale Road as well. When SDL was slated to extend the runway, there was quite a bit of noise from across the road, from MIMBYs hollering about airplanes flying over them. I was one of those pilots, I earned my private certificate at Scottsdale Piper. Runway 03 had a displaced threshold and 21 had right traffic with an immediate turnout. The agreement was that the runway could be extended but without shoring up the base, which is why SDL only has a 95,000 lb capacity, 75,000 for twin tandem aircraft. A DC-9 would not be able to land at Scottsdale. Add to that the 100' width (it was 75 feet when I landed an F-16 there in 1994 for a static display at the Scottsdale Air Fair, same year an EA-6 got stuck as it sank into the ramp, and it was narrow!) and no precision approaches, and Scottsdale is pretty much out of the question. It's also noted that there's no place for expansion, as can be seen in this image.


As others have noted, there's really no reason for a third airport when AZA (formerly IWA and before that CHD when it was Williams AFB) has so much room for growth.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Glendale's problems aren't relevant to the topic.

The west valley is the fastest-growing area and there's going to be a demand for more expansive mass transit and even larger airports in the future.

The west valley as a whole is still pushed to the side when it comes to upgrading the infrastructure even with all the exploding growth.

As of now there's no need for a third major airport in the Phoenix area, but when it comes time for one in the future I will bet the west valley will be low on the list or even off the list.

Glendales problems are entirely relevant.
It's economics, the largest economy in the WV has a lot of problems. It's simple. It's the only city that can support a lot of the upgraded infastructure but it won't. This isn't to disparage the WV I grew up in Glendale. But the WV is growth without an economy.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

Glendales problems are entirely relevant.
It's economics, the largest economy in the WV has a lot of problems. It's simple. It's the only city that can support a lot of the upgraded infastructure but it won't. This isn't to disparage the WV I grew up in Glendale. But the WV is growth without an economy.

I'm guessing it's a case of businesses(including employment) following rooftops. I've never researched the east valley back in the early days of its growth but I'm guessing it followed a similar "follow" path.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by stevek64

I'm guessing it's a case of businesses(including employment) following rooftops. I've never researched the east valley back in the early days of its growth but I'm guessing it followed a similar "follow" path.

Yes and no, the East Valley has always been a stronger region than the West Valley. Intel, America West, Motorola, and Honeywell gave EV and advantage the WV didn't have. And that was in the days before we decided growing to grow was how we wanted to operate. The WVs history is rooted in John F Long housing developments and agriculture. That's not to say that there weren't employment centers, Maryvale was founded on GI Bills, blue collar work and cheap housing. It's not a bad thing it's just reality, my grandparents owned a large farm in Glendale, a lot of my family worked in the industrial park allegedly responsible for the Maryvale cancer cluster. It also didn't help that ASU is in the EV as well.

The EV has always been the prosperous half of the city.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

Yes and no, the East Valley has always been a stronger region than the West Valley. Intel, America West, Motorola, and Honeywell gave EV and advantage the WV didn't have. And that was in the days before we decided growing to grow was how we wanted to operate. The WVs history is rooted in John F Long housing developments and agriculture. That's not to say that there weren't employment centers, Maryvale was founded on GI Bills, blue collar work and cheap housing. It's not a bad thing it's just reality, my grandparents owned a large farm in Glendale, a lot of my family worked in the industrial park allegedly responsible for the Maryvale cancer cluster. It also didn't help that ASU is in the EV as well.

The EV has always been the prosperous half of the city.

True on how things have gone so far but often an area/city/state/region that was once a laggard in a certain aspect can shift the other way and vice versa over time. Not to say the east valley is going to fall apart in regards to employment but just to say the past often doesn't always predict the future, especially when large changes/population growth occurs as what has been occurring in the far west valley, especially in recent decades. Time will tell. I wish both sides of the valley well.