Downtown Glendale preferred Light Rail route selected, could be complete by 2026 (Phoenix: middle-class, neighborhoods)

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Well-written about the Glendale route.

A better alternative is putting light rail on Thomas, McDowell, or Indian School, it would finally serve the west valley and I think it would have more ridership along one of those streets.

Forget about light rail in Scottsdale, it would work well there but the plastic population seems to think it's beneath them.

Yes... Scottsdale is limousine liberal.

Thomas, McDowell, and Indian School would run through the ghetto of again more low-density suburbia. It would run straight through Maryvale. Remember Maryvale begins from DT Glendale (just south of it) all the way down to the I-10. It's a huge neighborhood.

With that being said I don't think West Valley would benefit at all from it at this point. Not in these areas. There is just no support for public transit of this kind. West Valley is entirely low-density suburban cookie-cutter homes. I could see Bell Road benefitting from it but it's so far removed from the current Light Rail route.

Peoria Avenue near the MetroCenter could benefit. That place is a living hell to drive on right by the I-17. But again it's still pretty far removed from the current route. After that, there aren't really any other roads I would consider an option.

West Valley would better benefit from a commuter rail than this.

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by :-D

Yes... Scottsdale is limousine liberal.

Thomas, McDowell, and Indian School would run through the ghetto of again more low-density suburbia. It would run straight through Maryvale. Remember Maryvale begins from DT Glendale (just south of it) all the way down to the I-10. It's a huge neighborhood.

With that being said I don't think West Valley would benefit at all from it at this point. Not in these areas. There is just no support for public transit of this kind. West Valley is entirely low-density suburban cookie-cutter homes. I could see Bell Road benefitting from it but it's so far removed from the current Light Rail route.

Peoria Avenue near the MetroCenter could benefit. That place is a living hell to drive on right by the I-17. But again it's still pretty far removed from the current route. After that, there aren't really any other roads I would consider an option.

West Valley would better benefit from a commuter rail than this.

I had Maryvale in mind when I suggested light rail on those streets.

A Maryvale connection would get more ridership and serve the west valley mass transit needs better than the proposed Glendale route imho.

I agree about commuter rail, I'd like to see that in the large I-10 center strip

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

I had Maryvale in mind when I suggested light rail on those streets.

A Maryvale connection would get more ridership and serve the west valley mass transit needs better than the proposed Glendale route imho.

I agree about commuter rail, I'd like to see that in the large I-10 center strip

Oh because of Maryvale, I see.

I like how the light rail would extend to Grand Canyon University. I think Camelback in that region will suit it well. However going to DT Glendale was when I was turned off to the idea. If people really wanted DT Glendale to be served I think having the light rail follow Grand Ave. would be best than the current proposition.

Or just going straight west on Camelback I think would work. Being close to GCU will help ridership with all of the students that attend there. Grand Canyon is one of the biggest universities in the United States for student population.

And I 100% agree on commuter rail being on the I-10. It's West Valley's one true freeway towards most of the valley besides the 101's northern reaches. That commuter rail could be extended towards East Valley as well and maybe even as far as Casa Grande.

PS: I think Grand could also be an option for commuter rail in West Valley. Some rail already exists on that corridor so I wonder, emphasis on wonder, if we could buy the ROW for one of the tracks there. It would save a lot if it was possible.

[Pink Jazz]

I would think that Westgate and Arrowhead Towne Center could be good catchment areas for ridership in the West Valley.

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

I would think that Westgate and Arrowhead Towne Center could be good catchment areas for ridership in the West Valley.

Westgate and Arrowhead are well-thought out for Phoenix's car-centric plan. Lots of parking lot and it's all retail as well. Not that retail won't benefit from something like a Light Rail but I tend to only support public transit when it A) eases traffic and B) helps people get to work. Neither of these areas are hubs for employment or heavy traffic routes. Glendale Avenue in fact is incredibly wide around Westgate and the other roads near it because they planned for football traffic. I go to Westgate often because that is my closest option in comparison to Arrowhead and I have relative ease on Glendale, assuming I don't go through Downtown Glendale. I run into more traffic on the North-South running roads in that area which still go through agriculturally zoned areas and are only two lanes.

Bell would actually benefit from a light rail assuming it goes to Arrowhead. It would be even more beneficial if it went further West on Bell into Surprise... But I think more of the West Valley would be served if it took Grand if the overall goal would be to reach Surprise. Grand goes through a lot of the low-income neighborhoods that can truly benefit from better public transportation and because of it's diagonal direction will mean it'll cost less.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by :-D

Bell would actually benefit from a light rail assuming it goes to Arrowhead. It would be even more beneficial if it went further West on Bell into Surprise... But I think more of the West Valley would be served if it took Grand if the overall goal would be to reach Surprise. Grand goes through a lot of the low-income neighborhoods that can truly benefit from better public transportation and because of it's diagonal direction will mean it'll cost less.

I know many mention Grand as a potential light/commuter rail corridor, however, considering the GL bus route doesn't get a lot of ridership, I actually question the viability of a line along Grand. Plus, if the light rail is chosen for Grand, it would need ADOT's approval, since ADOT owns the ROW for Grand. At least on I-10 you have a wide median that can easily accommodate light rail; that convenience doesn't exist on Grand.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

I know many mention Grand as a potential light/commuter rail corridor, however, considering the GL bus route doesn't get a lot of ridership, I actually question the viability of a line along Grand. Plus, if the light rail is chosen for Grand, it would need ADOT's approval, since ADOT owns the ROW for Grand. At least on I-10 you have a wide median that can easily accommodate light rail; that convenience doesn't exist on Grand.

If I were to put light rail on Grand (which I wouldn't), I wouldn't necessarily put it on or in the middle of the road. I would try and use the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway (BNSF) ROW and place the tracks there, so instead of the light rail stopping for red lights, the cars will be stopping for the light rail. I just don't think there's enough room in certain spots to squeeze two lanes of light rail in with the freight rail along the BNSF tracks.

For commuter rail, I would try and go with a plan like this, but like I mentioned above, placing additional rails along Grand won't be easy and sharing rails with the freight turns into a nightmare:

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

If I were to put light rail on Grand (which I wouldn't), I wouldn't necessarily put it on or in the middle of the road. I would try and use the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway (BNSF) ROW and place the tracks there, so instead of the light rail stopping for red lights, the cars will be stopping for the light rail. I just don't think there's enough room in certain spots to squeeze two lanes of light rail in with the freight rail along the BNSF tracks.

For commuter rail, I would try and go with a plan like this, but like I mentioned above, placing additional rails along Grand won't be easy and sharing rails with the freight turns into a nightmare:

Salt Lake City bought existing freight ROW for their commuter rail. I wonder how well that's working out for them. Commuter rail would be better on Grand than light rail I think. But I am still going to insist Grand would be a great public transit corridor. Grand is pretty bad to drive on in it's lower half. I live pretty close to Grand and I use it to drive and it's pretty terrible. Grand is terrible through out it's entirety until hitting about Sun City where it FINALLY widens. It's used a lot out here.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by :-D

Salt Lake City bought existing freight ROW for their commuter rail. I wonder how well that's working out for them. Commuter rail would be better on Grand than light rail I think. But I am still going to insist Grand would be a great public transit corridor. Grand is pretty bad to drive on in it's lower half. I live pretty close to Grand and I use it to drive and it's pretty terrible. Grand is terrible through out it's entirety until hitting about Sun City where it FINALLY widens. It's used a lot out here.

Commuter rail might be OK along Grand Avenue using the existing tracks. The problem is all the connector surface streets and all the backed up traffic. Even the overpasses haven't helped the traffic situation all that much ... and overpasses (or underpasses) really belong at the railroad tracks so that traffic can move freely instead of having to stop & wait for those blasted trains!

[sloguy1496]

The idea of commuter rail is certainly an intriguing prospect.

The issue I see with light rail extending that far out is that the aspects of light rail that make it so great for urban environments is it's downfall in suburban ones. Light Rail works very well in urban or centralized environments where stops are frequent and users can "hop on and hop off" wherever it is convenient to them. That idea is at the core of what makes light rail so effective. Light Rail becomes much less effective when you start to consider it as a means of commuting, considering Light Rail is an inherently urban form of mass transit. It is not as efficient when it has to cover the large distances we see between, say, Arrowhead and Downtown, particularly with the grid system we have in place. With vehicle traffic, stop frequency, and relatively low speed, I'd rather drive.

Contrary to this, passenger/commuter rail makes relatively few major stops at important points of interest, village centers, commercial centers, downtown, and the intl airport, etc. For this reason, it can be much faster and thus becomes more efficient over longer distances.

When you have these two transportation networks interconnect with each other, you begin to create a much better integrated transit system valley wide. It likely won't ever happen, but it sure is interesting to visualize and envision what the valley would look like with a hybrid commuter rail/light rail system like that in place. Here's another purely hypothetical idea: what if elevated light rail (similar to the San Diego Trolley - see below) was integrated into the light rail expansion plans, how would that change things? Cost aside, that would solve the space issue along Grand.