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And you're a boy scout, right? Never gone over the speed limit, ran a red light/sped up on yellow, used any kind of banned drug, sung "Happy Birthday" in a public space (yes, that really is illegal and you can be sued for it)? Or do you prefer to pick and choose which laws apply to you and which to others? If you step back and look at the logic of this situation, it is a bit strange that people are fixated on a certain law, while forgetting thousands of others. They're not called "illegals" for the reason you stated. It's much easier for you to keep that fire in your belly when you use a label like that, which only your fellow puppets on the bandwagon use. If you'd bother to do any research, you'd find that not only are there a lot of myths about them, but also that if you had your wish and, in true Kristallnacht fashion, they were all rounded up and deported, the US economy would suffer a major blow.
And silly me, I should've known that anti-immigrants wouldn't be able to wrap their heads around the nature of this country when there is precedent for it. This selfish, entitled attitude has been in this country for centuries, but the target changes. I mentioned the Dust Bowl refugees. In the early 20th century, legal immigrants were also told they weren't welcome and many Americans wouldn't serve them. Around WWII, Americans wanted nothing to do with the flood of Jews who fled Europe, and many had this same attitude. Can you really not see a pattern? I began my previous statement with the truth: you just find a reason to justify why you don't want them here. If the government started issuing work visas, and made it easy, quick and painless to get them, and suddenly they were all legal, you'd just find another reason to complain about them. Then it would likely be complaining that they will replace you by working for less... which technically, under federal law, Americans with severe disabilities can do as well under the FLSA (Department of Labor link below), and Goodwill was found to be paying them as low as 22 cents per hour. Of course, when you think about it, most people can't and won't be replaced by someone that disabled, just as many people have jobs an undocumented worker can't fill.
The "reason" and ONLY reason being because they broke the law and it's not fair to the millions of others who migrate here legally and play by the rules. What you are suggesting is a level of anarchy......the rule of law isn't necessary because "that" law is just not valid in "my" view. Open borders, right? Let everyone/anyone flow over who chooses to ignore the rule of law because it doesn't suit them, no worries. So let's play your game on a bigger scale since most everyone isn't a "boy scout" and drop the false fronts and have no rule of law because the rule of law is passe as we have entered the fantasy world of pick and choose only the laws you want to follow and the rest can be safely ignored because(insert your reasons). Or not follow. Hypothetical example 1....let's say dvxhd's house/apartment gets robbed. Sorry, just someone who needed something more than you. Oh well. And you'd be racist to prevent such a person in need from taking things they obviously need more than you, right? If they get a little violent? Eh, they have mental health issues...aren't you sensitive to this? No punishment necessary in this case because of this reason. And each of us can play the game of what laws we want to follow or not follow. How convenient! I can go on and on with your train of thinking and it's a dangerous/slippery slope. Be careful of wishing for an idealistic world that you paint where those who break the law/rules are "victims" and those who call them anything but are "racist".....you might not like the final results when someone doesn't like a law and decides not to follow it and it bites you or a family member/someone you care for.
"I think it's GREAT! It should be free to anyone who wants to go no matter where you're from or even if you are here legally or not as education is a basic human right.
I also think healthcare, food,basic utilities including internet and of course housing should be free as those are all basic human rights as well."
Sorry to interrupt, but you forgot that free Cadillac with the full tank of gas .......
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,196,310 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I'll play, I'm your huckleberry.
The "reason" and ONLY reason being because they broke the law and it's not fair to the millions of others who migrate here legally and play by the rules. What you are suggesting is a level of anarchy......the rule of law isn't necessary because "that" law is just not valid in "my" view. Open borders, right? Let everyone/anyone flow over who chooses to ignore the rule of law because it doesn't suit them, no worries. So let's play your game on a bigger scale since most everyone isn't a "boy scout" and drop the false fronts and have no rule of law because the rule of law is passe as we have entered the fantasy world of pick and choose only the laws you want to follow and the rest can be safely ignored because(insert your reasons). Or not follow. Hypothetical example 1....let's say dvxhd's house/apartment gets robbed. Sorry, just someone who needed something more than you. Oh well. And you'd be racist to prevent such a person in need from taking things they obviously need more than you, right? If they get a little violent? Eh, they have mental health issues...aren't you sensitive to this? No punishment necessary in this case because of this reason. And each of us can play the game of what laws we want to follow or not follow. How convenient! I can go on and on with your train of thinking and it's a dangerous/slippery slope. Be careful of wishing for an idealistic world that you paint where those who break the law/rules are "victims" and those who call them anything but are "racist".....you might not like the final results when it bites you or a family member/someone you care for.
Would you kindly go back and quote when I said we should allow this "anarchy"? I never once said we should have open borders, nor did I say we should allow a massive flood of people in. My position is and always has been against this deep hatred people seem to have. This immigration issue aside, what annoys me about it is that I feel like people are trying to push the envelope in what they can/can't get away with when it comes to human rights. The fact that there are so many people willing to resort to things reminiscent of the rise of Nazis is a bit worrisome. My stance is for a guest worker program. The United States has numerous types of visas, and I think a quick and easy means to allow them to work is the most beneficial option. And yes, it's possible to throw a clause on that work visa to deny citizenship based on births. If they don't want to comply with that, then by all means deport them.
And for what it's worth... my ancestors did occupy a vast expanse of land from the the Northwest to Texas. I guess American immigrants just needed the land more. So... any plans on giving it back anytime soon? You know, going back to your homeland? No? Maybe you should go back and try a different angle on that one.
Would you kindly go back and quote when I said we should allow this "anarchy"? I never once said we should have open borders, nor did I say we should allow a massive flood of people in. My position is and always has been against this deep hatred people seem to have. This immigration issue aside, what annoys me about it is that I feel like people are trying to push the envelope in what they can/can't get away with when it comes to human rights. The fact that there are so many people willing to resort to things reminiscent of the rise of Nazis is a bit worrisome. My stance is for a guest worker program. The United States has numerous types of visas, and I think a quick and easy means to allow them to work is the most beneficial option. And yes, it's possible to throw a clause on that work visa to deny citizenship based on births. If they don't want to comply with that, then by all means deport them.
And for what it's worth... my ancestors did occupy a vast expanse of land from the the Northwest to Texas. I guess American immigrants just needed the land more. So... any plans on giving it back anytime soon? You know, going back to your homeland? No? Maybe you should go back and try a different angle on that one.
I can't speak for everyone but my position is simple....it's simply unfair to those who play by the rule of law and migrate here legally. That's where it begins and ends for me. My impression from your posts is people don't like illegals because of "hatred" and calling people "racist" who are against people coming into our country illegally. Personally, I don't care what race/sex/color people are who break our immigration laws.....and yes, I can understand why people sneak over on many levels.....but it's still a matter of breaking the law that's unfair no matter who they are. Hatred/racism has nothing to do with it. I think you'll find most people feel the same way. And on the topic of this thread, I feel it's a slap in the face to set up a scholarship for illegal aliens, even if it's for one student and they only give that one student $100 towards their tuition. It's a slap in the face to others who migrate here legally. It's the principal of the matter. Yes, a private college apparently has the right to do this. But it doesn't make it right/fair to others playing by the rule of law. And since we don't know if the illegal alien in college looking for the scholarship came over as a 2 year old with their parents or waltzed over the border when they were 16 by themselves.....
"Up to 120 unaccompanied youths are arriving each day, officials say, a number that has tripled over the last five years and that by some estimates could soon reach 60,000 a year."
As for the anarchy/ignoring laws, your posts seem to have a very sympathetic tone towards illegal aliens as it seemed you thought people who were against illegals did so because they were "racist" and you have no problem with them not facing consequences breaking the law. That's why I went off on the "pick and choose" the laws one wants to follow theme in my last post but if I was wrong in my assumption, please correct me.
Yes, I'm also 100% for a guest worker program. Such programs like E-Verify exist but I don't think it's enforced/used at the level it should be used. Again, anything that is legal and on the level and is fair to everyone else who's playing by the rules is fine by me. Plus I'd also throw in we should try to fill these jobs with workers in this country looking for work before we look outside of our country.
As for my ancestors, my grand parents on both sides migrated here legally and went through the proper/legal channels that was law at that time frame.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,196,310 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I can't speak for everyone but my position is simple....it's simply unfair to those who play by the rule of law and migrate here legally. That's where it begins and ends for me. My impression from your posts is people don't like illegals because of "hatred" and calling people "racist" who are against people coming into our country illegally. Personally, I don't care what race/sex/color people are who break our immigration laws.....and yes, I can understand why people sneak over on many levels.....but it's still a matter of breaking the law that's unfair no matter who they are. Hatred/racism has nothing to do with it. I think you'll find most people feel the same way. And on the topic of this thread, I feel it's a slap in the face to set up a scholarship for illegal aliens, even if it's for one student and they only give that one student $100 towards their tuition. It's a slap in the face to others who migrate here legally. It's the principal of the matter. Yes, a private college apparently has the right to do this. But it doesn't make it right/fair to others playing by the rule of law. And since we don't know if the illegal alien in college looking for the scholarship came over as a 2 year old with their parents or waltzed over the border when they were 16 by themselves.....
"Up to 120 unaccompanied youths are arriving each day, officials say, a number that has tripled over the last five years and that by some estimates could soon reach 60,000 a year."
As for the anarchy/ignoring laws, your posts seem to have a very sympathetic tone towards illegal aliens as it seemed you thought people who were against illegals did so because they were "racist" and you have no problem with them not facing consequences breaking the law. That's why I went off on the "pick and choose" the laws one wants to follow theme in my last post but if I was wrong in my assumption, please correct me.
Yes, I'm also 100% for a guest worker program. Such programs like E-Verify exist but I don't think it's enforced/used at the level it should be used. Again, anything that is legal and on the level and is fair to everyone else who's playing by the rules is fine by me. Plus I'd also throw in we should try to fill these jobs with workers in this country looking for work before we look outside of our country.
As for my ancestors, my grand parents on both sides migrated here legally and went through the proper/legal channels that was law at that time frame.
And as I stated earlier, there are many, many instances in US history in which a group of some sort of migrant has not been well received, including other American citizens as in the Dust Bowl and Katrina. In many of those cases, it was all legal immigration/migration, but Americans didn't want those groups near them. It's been documented that there are indeed illegal immigrants from Asia, mainly China, but all of this seems to be directed primarily at Mexicans. Lo and behold, Latinos are the largest minority group, and the only one that could viably become the majority soon, displacing whites. I've experienced this sort of rhetoric living in Phoenix, yet I'm not at all Latino. Because of my ancestry, my skin bronzes very naturally when I get sun, and I have dark hair. I've had people throw things at me from moving cars and yell "go back to Mexico." My family has traced our genealogy pretty far back, and no one comes from anywhere south of the border or even Spain. Am I not justified in associating this sentiment with racism?
And if this scholarship really bothers you that much, you really oughtn't look too deep into what kinds of scholarships are available, because there are many, many, many scholarships that are strictly for certain groups, and others are ineligible to apply because of some aspect that sets them aside from being traditionally "normative".
It bears repeating, as you've discovered, that you were indeed very wrong about me. I think there are far more dangerous people in this country than Mexican migrants, evangelicals being one such group, and a lot of what's going on in this country reminds me of stories my grandmother would tell as Hitler annexed her country. Leaders take advantage of populism and test the waters with what they can do, and soon something has happened that has taken a dark turn. Stepping away from this topic, look at abortion and women's reproductive rights and how some states have slowly exerted more control over women; or look at some of these "religious liberty" laws surfacing in the wake of the same-sex marriage ruling. To me, it's a slippery slope when leaders start seeing what they can get away with when taking advantage of populism, and it's a bit worrisome to me when cliches become truth, such as "illegal is illegal" or incorrect beliefs about their ability to use tax-funded programs.
I've also stated that I do have ancestry in this country in the pre-Columbian era, which really makes me roll my eyes when people feel entitled to this land and have no blood connection to it. When members of my ancestor's tribe set up a camp, and nearly 250 were slaughtered in one day when the US Army attacked them, it really is a bit of a slap in the face when people without that heritage feel entitled to it all because they or their ancestors migrated here "legally".
The history of America in the Pre-Columbian era is a dynamic one and let's not pretend that wars were not fought and territory didn't change hands by force many times. This was not some peaceful utopia, the Americas were full of vibrant, diverse, strong societies and just like cultures today, territory was fought over and blood was spilled as territory changed hands.
It is also worth noting that every one of us who lives in Arizona is living in former sovereign lands of A) Spain and later B) Mexico.
Mexico is a dynamic, strong, first-world economy -- one of the largest in the WORLD. Mexico's economy is ranked 15th in the world by the UN, IMF and World Bank by GDP. It ranks ahead of all the Scandinavian countries and is of very similar size to the economies of Spain and South Korea.
It's kind of shameful the way American discourse often seems to treat Mexico like some third-world backwater. Yes, it has wealth disparities and some people can and do choose to leave the No. 15 economy for the No. 1 economy, but it is still a large, powerful economy with significant growth and opportunities. There's a reason Mexican immigration has dwindled, many migrants have returned home, and much of today's illegal immigration comes from poorer Central American countries. Illegal immigration is not simply a Mexico problem, nor are all illegal immigrants Mexicans.
Also I take offense at being lumped in with the NDSAP because I'm an evangelical. You really, really lose people when you make unconnected leaps of logic like that, dvxhd. Cliffs Notes version for you: Trump is not an evangelical.
dvxhd, again, I can only give you my views on the matter. What other people believe/what they have done and throughout history does not = me so that's non-sequitur on the matter. I or you or anyone can't control/change the behavior/history of people who inhabited this land hundreds/thousands of years ago. I or you aren't responsible for their actions/beliefs. We don't live in the past. We can only live in the now and regardless if you agree with what they did or not, civilized societies live by the current rule of law ....today.....now....and that's the laws we should follow and respect.
As for other scholarships, I'm not sure what you are referring to in other scholarships that "would bother me", because they are for single groups, again generalizing/making assumptions what my views are on the matter. My main issue is that they should be given to legal citizens. In regards to "far more dangerous people than Mexicans", again, the point of this thread/topic is scholarships for illegal aliens. I'm not singling out Mexicans....I don't care if it's illegal Mexicans, Canadians, Russians, Chinese, etc.....they are all unworthy of a scholarship in my view simply because they are in the country illegally. Notice this thread title and poll isn't about mexican illegal immigrants and a college scholarship.....it's illegal immigrants, all of them. You're again taking this topic out of context/generalizing. And it sounds like you're trying to use this thread to make bigger points on your world view on matters.
On the topic, I find it interesting you generalize often in making your points, call other people racists, etc. yet you generalize about others and most recently in your last post, an entire group of people, evangelicals. And I'm not an evangelical so I say this from an objective place. Generalizing about groups of people is a big step towards a word you like to use....racism. And you've been very wrong in generalizing about me so far.
The state legislature is unfairly punishing Arizona residents who are illegal aliens (many of them brought to this country as children by their parents) by forcing the community colleges to charge them out of state tuition. The only thing that this law does is make it significantly more difficult for these students to obtain higher education (and actually causes more problems as it essentially shuts them out of any skilled positions). This fee simply tries to address this situation.
I'm all in favor of a voluntary fee to get around this issue. I don't believe it should be mandatory, however.
Well said, and I completely agree. They are U.S. Citizens and Americans as far as I'm concerned. They were raised here and grew up and share our values whether they were technically born here. Many of them are bright students who wish to study and make something of themselves. Why should we deprive them of those opportunities.
And even if you disagree and oppose illegal immigrants and dislike immigrants, would you rather them become educated and contribute to our society or turn to other jobs to make ends meet (ie crime). I would much rather have a productive educated immigrant who can successfully contribute to our society.
I understand the rationale behind it, with undocumented kids growing up and etc. However, as someone who jumped through years of flaming hoops and paid thousands of dollars to immigrate here LEGALLY, and go to school at ASU, I would not be happy about this. It would basically be not only a slap in the face to the hard working people who try and fund their own education, but other immigrants who did come here legally. Why bother going through all that trouble, when I could have jumped a fence somewhere and have free education? They need to address the situation, but not by putting even more financial stress from those who are paying for it already.
I also paid the first two years as out-of-state considering I had not lived in AZ for an entire year yet prior to starting, so I feel the sting of it. Why not address the cost of crazy tuition prices? Cap it off somehow.
Yeah but the difference is they didn't hop a fence. They were brought here by their parents when they were children. They didn't actively choose to break the law. They were kids, they were not adults trying to work the system.
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