Downtown Minneapolis vs. Downtown Phoenix

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by the_enforcer

It also blows that two maricopa county jails and the superior court is smack in the middle of downtown. They take up too much space and just leave sort of a "negative" energy.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Call me a weirdo, but I believe there is such a thing as "spiritual geography," and whenever I'm in downtown Phoenix, especially the western end by the courts, jails, and city buildings, that whole corridor all the way west to the State Capitol, I don't get a very good feeling at all. "Negative energy" is a good way to put it. I agree with silverbear that if there's hope, it's the area north of downtown, between Fillmore and I-10. I just don't picture that area as getting very dense-- perhaps mid-rise buildings at best. Not downtown, but perhaps an "uptown"?

[irwin]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Call me a weirdo, but I believe there is such a thing as "spiritual geography," and whenever I'm in downtown Phoenix, especially the western end by the courts, jails, and city buildings, that whole corridor all the way west to the State Capitol, I don't get a very good feeling at all. "Negative energy" is a good way to put it. I agree with silverbear that if there's hope, it's the area north of downtown, between Fillmore and I-10. I just don't picture that area as getting very dense-- perhaps mid-rise buildings at best. Not downtown, but perhaps an "uptown"?

Hate to jump into the ole' Phoenix board but I just wanted to add one quick thing. In most American cities I can think of, really not many people live in what is defined as "downtown."

Look at New York, the city that defined the term "downtown" (downtown is "down" on the end of Manhattan). Almost no one lives downtown in Manhattan. They are trying to redevelop the area with the whole Battery Park City development but it is still an anomaly.

Now, this may sound like just semantics to people in Phoenix but in New York people know the difference. Other cities are really no different. Almost no one lives in downtown Boston. People live in Back Bay, Northend, etc. Nobody lives in downtown DC. They live in Georgetown, Foggy Bottom, etc. No one lives in downtown LA. They live in Hollywood, Venice and Santa Monica. No one lives in downtown Houston. They live in Uptown and Montrose.

Anyway, my point is that not having a huge population in downtown Phoenix is not uncommon and not really the problem. I think the real problem with Phoenix is that the city lacks the Midtown, Northend, Back Bay, Uptown, Santa Monica, Georgetown area. It needs a dense residential part of the city where one can live in 5-10 story buildings with shops, services, entertainment and walkable neighborhoods.

Okay, that's my two cents. Take it as you may.

[HX_Guy]

You bring up a good point and the area north of the true downtown (north of Fillmore) has dozens of empty, dusty lots. Some residential projects have opened or are opening, such as 215 McKinley (5 story residential with ground floor retail) and well as Alta Apartments that will have 332 apartment units in 8 story buildings and ground floor retail. There are also other projects in the works, mostly all residential and given enough time (10-15 years minimum) this area could develop into a dense low/mid rise residential area like you see in other cities.

Downtown Phoenix is sort of unique compared to other downtowns I've been to (Chicago, San Fran, Manhattan) as it doesn't really have districts like those do. In San Fran for example, we stayed near Union Square and it was all hotels, restaurants, and shopping...the business district and residential were elsewhere.
Downtown Phoenix mixes it all, although laking, but you have businesses with hotels with residential all in the same area...you could work in the Chase tower and literally live a block away, 2-3 minutes walking distance. Many people work in Manhattan and I'm sure many of them live there...but I'm guessing they must take the subway or bus to get to their job, there probably aren't many who could walk outside their door and be at work.

[sweettearose]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Well, I don't see it as "there is nothing there". There is obviously some stuff there, which I pointed out before.

Like what..Chase Field and US Airways Arena? Honestly, if downtown lacked those facilities, it would be a complete ghost town at night. And if I want to go to downtown, I can drive there in 10-15 minutes so why do I need to live there? It's not like downtown Phoenix has blocks of streets packed with upscale restaurants, dining and entertainment.

I assume you don't live downtown but in the suburbs. Why is that? What do you have in the suburbs that you wouldn't have downtown? What would you have in downtown that you don't have in the suburbs?

Safety for one thing! Downtown Phoenix is not safe at night. And the surrounding cities and areas that border downtown to the west and south are not safe either.

Grocery: 1 mile now, footsteps in the near future
Move theatre: 1/2 mile
Mall shopping: 7.5 miles at Biltmore Fashion Park
Something to eat: Footsteps outside your door
Clubs/bars: Footsetps outside your door
Gym: YMCA about 1/2 mile

Except you are failing to assess the quality of each of those items. I live near a Whole Foods, you live near a ghetto Safeway. My movie theatre is a pretty nice Harkins with a crowd that actually doesn't answer their cell phones during the movie. The Biltmore is further away tha 7.5 miles from downtown. What clubs are you referring to? The nices ones are in Old Town Scottsdale. The only bars you have are sports bars like Majerles, Cooperstown, and Jacksons on 3rd. You lack nice lounges on the same level as Six or the Merc bar. I would not work out in that YMCA; it's rundown and has a sketchy crowd.

So, your question was...why move there if there is nothing there? Well, there is clearly a lot more there then what I have available when I live and I'm guessing my situation is similar to many other people's.

But that's because you live in Happy Valley. I would rather live in downtown than Happy Valley too. But if I had a choice of living in many other areas of Phoenix versus downtown, I would choose them.

I haven't even touched on jobs and working yet but if you work downtown, that makes it all that much more appealing.

This I agree with and I would have moved to downtown but it has a long way to go in regards to development.

Of course there is the fact that not everyone, and actually most people, do not like high rise or high density living and that's fine.

Are you kiddng me, people are clamoring for any pseudo "high density" living in the valley and are willing to pay up the nose for it. The condos in Kierland Commons were going for a fortune just so people could live the main shopping and dining area. They are high rise condos in which you have to access your floors with a private elevator. They are building similar high rise condos in Old Town Scottsdale on the southwest corner of Camelback and Scottsdale Rd. They are just not moving to downtown because there is nothing there aside from two ballparks and some corporate high rises.

What I'm trying to say is that using the reason of "there is nothing there" as the only one for not living in downtown makes no sense. On the contrary, that reasoning would actually fit a majority of the suburbs.

But you are not making much sense by simpling listing items without giving any consideration to the quality of items being compared. You mention the YMCA in downtown but it is truly substandard when compared to the ultra nice gyms in the suburbs like Lifestime Fitness or Gainey Sports Club. Also, some things you mentioned are not really in downtown like the Biltmore; many suburbs are closer to the Biltmore than you. Even the suburbs have bars and clubs but I wont mention those because I'm taking quality into consideration.

In the end, I think the #1 problem comes down to housing costs and I admit this is the reason the suburbs are more appealing usually. My house goes for around $290,000 at almost 1900 sq ft. In downtown, that would buy me something in the 750 sq ft range.

That's not really the issue because people are willing to spend a fortune on condos in Kierland Commons, Tempe Townlake and One Scottsdale. If downtown was nice, people would invest in it but it's truly lacking many things. People in Phoenix have money but they are not going to spend a fortune in downtown when there is no assurance when the area will develop or if it will ever develop.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by sweettearose

If I want to enjoy downtown, I can drive there in 10 minutes. Why do I need to live there? What is it that downtown offers that I can't get in the suburbs aside from sports events and concerts?

I've listed quite a few. The #1 thing that it offers are items within walking distance that the suburbs usually don't offer.

Originally Posted by sweettearose

Safety for one thing! Downtown Phoenix is not safe at night. And the surrounding cities and areas that border downtown to the west and south are not safe either.

I will give you that south, west, and east of downtown are not the safest of areas, but downtown itself is pretty safe from what I understand. It is true that the "safe" area is pretty small in comparison to the suburbs

Originally Posted by sweettearose

Except you are failing to assess the quality of each of those items. I live near a Whole Foods, you live near a ghetto Safeway. My movie theatre is a pretty nice Harkins with a crowd that actually doesn't answer their cell phones during the movie.

Ok, now you're talking about personal preference and that's ok. I stated earlier that preference comes into play and really you can't judge people on tastes. The thing is, it's one thing to say "There isn't anything downtown that I like vs making a blanket statement that "there is nothing downtown". You wouldn't like to go to the Y or maybe the AMC 24 (which by the way is a pretty nice theatre, always clean and never had a problem with people answering their phones etc) but others, like myself, wouldn't have a problem with it.

By the way, there is also an AJ's 3.5 miles away from my house, is that more along your lines?

Originally Posted by sweettearose

The Biltmore is further away tha 7.5 miles from downtown.

Is it? Check out Google Maps...address 1 W Washington St to 24th and Camelback and tell me what it says for the distance.

Originally Posted by sweettearose

What clubs are you referring to? The nices ones are in Old Town Scottsdale. The only bars you have are sports bars like Majerles, Cooperstown, and Jacksons on 3rd. You lack nice lounges on the same level as Six or the Merc bar.

I'm talking about Club DWNTWN, Hard Rock, Sky, Silver, Bar Smith and Amsterdams to name a few. Yes, they aren't the same vibe and crowd as Scottsdale which has some awesome places, but again that comes down to preference and taste. I've been to Club DWNTWN and Hard Rock (on Thursdays, Latin night) many times and had a great time.

Originally Posted by sweettearose

Also, some things you mentioned are not really in downtown like the Biltmore; many suburbs are closer to the Biltmore than you.

I never said the Biltmore was downtown, I said it was 7.5 miles away.
And yes, there are many suburbs that are more centrally located then where I'm at, I was mainly comparing a far out suburb like the one I'm in or many other people are in.


You brought up sports and concerts, something I hadn't mentioned before and that is yet another good reason to be right there. You say you can drive 10 minutes, so why live there...and I could say why drive 10 minutes, and maybe not be able to enjoy a few drinks, when you could live there and get tipsy.