ITT Tech closes down..had Tempe Campus.. (best, teach)

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

The question is also why we have to allow such choices when we know it only ends in disaster - for at least most of the people. In Germany loan terms that cannot realistically be repaid are not allowed together with diploma mills offering pretend-degrees for a king's ransom. Is Germany therefore worse off than the US? I highly doubt it. I rather think sensible regulation can go a long way protecting people. It used to be that we built each other up in this country, now we all seem to be happy to prey on the gullible as much as we can in the name of allowing "choices" we know very well lead to disaster. In just a few years we have racked up quite a number: for-profit diploma mills, not repayable mortgage loans, payday loans, title loans, Madoff and other ponzi schemes.

I agree. I deal with it in medicine on a daily basis. The FDA does not regulate the supplement industry so all of these products can make false claims without any substantial evidence to support it. These pill producers exploit the public and fear monger by demonizing traditional medicine. These industries are allowed to exploit the public the and even cause harm in many instances. I still remember in the 1990's how ephedra was marketed as synthetic marijuana and was advertised giving a "natural" high. Or how androsteneidione was allowed to be sold in health food stores because it was only a steroid precursor. It was a legal way of selling anabolic steroids over the shelf. What a joke that was. Ultimately it was pulled from the shelves. Sensible regulation would mean the FDA regulates all of these drugs. Why do we essentially allow snake oil to be legally sold and allowed to make unsubstantiated claims?

Likewise, these accrediting bodies have practically no standards and can accredit almost anything as a university or college. Hence the reason these diploma mills popped up everywhere and made money through government loans and charging outrageous tuition.

[jimj]

As a parent of an ASU grad who is also now going to a "for profit" college I can say that not ALL for profit colleges are crooks and diploma mills.
Some for profit colleges can deliver certain classes that are more specific/focused in depth product than public universities can or do deliver.

When my son (and his classmates) entered ASU he had a fairly specific goal in mind and was told by his "advisors" that his class schedule would accomplish those goals. Unfortunately this did not turn out to be true and he was not taught the skills/software/hardware needed for his chosen profession. He was given more of a general idea of the skills needed as he found out when he went out and applied for work. At first I thought "well, what did you do wrong in choosing your classes" but when I spoke with several of his classmates they too were finding the same issues.

Now that he's in a for profit college he's finding out/learning what he didn't know, and HAS to know to become employed in his chosen field.
We'll soon see which was a better investment but from where I stand it's the for profit college that's giving him the focused in depth instruction instead of the high level overview that he got at ASU.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by jimj

As a parent of an ASU grad who is also now going to a "for profit" college I can say that not ALL for profit colleges are crooks and diploma mills.
Some for profit colleges can deliver certain classes that are more specific/focused in depth product than public universities can or do deliver.

When my son (and his classmates) entered ASU he had a fairly specific goal in mind and was told by his "advisors" that his class schedule would accomplish those goals. Unfortunately this did not turn out to be true and he was not taught the skills/software/hardware needed for his chosen profession. He was given more of a general idea of the skills needed as he found out when he went out and applied for work. At first I thought "well, what did you do wrong in choosing your classes" but when I spoke with several of his classmates they too were finding the same issues.

Now that he's in a for profit college he's finding out/learning what he didn't know, and HAS to know to become employed in his chosen field.
We'll soon see which was a better investment but from where I stand it's the for profit college that's giving him the focused in depth instruction instead of the high level overview that he got at ASU.

I'm not disputing the point that vocational and for profit schools teach directly to what jobs need. However, I dispute the fact that they can make one more competitive for jobs. ASU offers much better clout and networking opportunities particularly since many schools directly recruit on their campus. Most of the for profit schools offer no such opportunities and graduates are often left to fend for themselves when getting jobs. Your son already has an ASU degree so he is always going to be more competitive than someone who only has a for-profit degree. I'm certain if he only had a for profit degree, his experience would be much different in terms of getting jobs.

The same concept applies to MBA programs. There are three types of MBA programs: day, night/part time and executive. The daytime programs are the most competitive in terms of the application process. The daytime programs also have access to certain on-campus recruiting that the other programs may not grant access to. The night and executive programs are much easier to get into and typically have more favorable schedules. Some people think if they just have an MBA behind their name, it's the same, and this isn't the case. Not only does it matter where you get your MBA but it also matters what type you get. Those full time "day" attendees have much better opportunities, which is why they are the hardest to get into. So while some may be discouraged by having to quit their job, take out loans and deal with a more competitive application process, the rewards are greater too.

Personally, I think the "executive MBA's" are designed to rip people off just like for profit degrees. These schools realize people will pay for a name and they offer some sham degree on-line to a wealthy person who wants the convenience of getting an online degree to spruce up their resume. They don't learn any tangible skills aside from completing busy work and then are granted an "executive MBA"

[jimj]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I'm not disputing the point that vocational and for profit schools teach directly to what jobs need. However, I dispute the fact that they can make one more competitive for jobs. ASU offers much better clout and networking opportunities particularly since many schools directly recruit on their campus. Most of the for profit schools offer no such opportunities and graduates are often left to fend for themselves when getting jobs. Your son already has an ASU degree so he is always going to be more competitive than someone who only has a for-profit degree. I'm certain if he only had a for profit degree, his experience would be much different in terms of getting jobs.

The same concept applies to MBA programs. There are three types of MBA programs: day, night/part time and executive. The daytime programs are the most competitive in terms of the application process. The daytime programs also have access to certain on-campus recruiting that the other programs may not grant access to. The night and executive programs are much easier to get into and typically have more favorable schedules. Some people think if they just have an MBA behind their name, it's the same, and this isn't the case. Not only does it matter where you get your MBA but it also matters what type you get. Those full time "day" attendees have much better opportunities, which is why they are the hardest to get into. So while some may be discouraged by having to quit their job, take out loans and deal with a more competitive application process, the rewards are greater too.

Personally, I think the "executive MBA's" are designed to rip people off just like for profit degrees. These schools realize people will pay for a name and they offer some sham degree on-line to a wealthy person who wants the convenience of getting an online degree to spruce up their resume. They don't learn any tangible skills aside from completing busy work and then are granted an "executive MBA"

Part of my point and what I learned is that sometimes public universities promise things that are not true to get bodies in the door just like for profit schools like ITT and others have done. Public universities are not immune to the want/need of cash flowing in the doors just because they're public.
As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to my son's ASU education we were cheated out of $100k.
It is what it is, we're moving on with him learning what he actually needs to be competitive in his chosen industry.
What's interesting, several of his friends who went through the same course he did at ASU are now enrolling where he goes now.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by jimj

Part of my point and what I learned is that sometimes public universities promise things that are not true to get bodies in the door just like for profit schools like ITT and others have done. Public universities are not immune to the want/need of cash flowing in the doors just because they're public.
As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to my son's ASU education we were cheated out of $100k.
It is what it is, we're moving on with him learning what he actually needs to be competitive in his chosen industry.
What's interesting, several of his friends who went through the same course he did at ASU are now enrolling where he goes now.

100k?! That sounds like fun times!

May I ask, is he going to grad school or redoing the same level of degree, i.e. another Bachelor's.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

100k?! That sounds like fun times!

May I ask, is he going to grad school or redoing the same level of degree, i.e. another Bachelor's.

Another BA, same field. I guess I should say $50k +/- as he'd have to take the required courses wherever he went.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by jimj

Another BA, same field. I guess I should say $50k +/- as he'd have to take the required courses wherever he went.

May I ask the general field? I'm not doubting you, I've just never heard of this problem with a BA.

My BA might as well have been in horse and carriage design, but it didn't limit me.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by jimj

Part of my point and what I learned is that sometimes public universities promise things that are not true to get bodies in the door just like for profit schools like ITT and others have done. Public universities are not immune to the want/need of cash flowing in the doors just because they're public.
As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to my son's ASU education we were cheated out of $100k.
It is what it is, we're moving on with him learning what he actually needs to be competitive in his chosen industry.
What's interesting, several of his friends who went through the same course he did at ASU are now enrolling where he goes now.

The bottom line is public universities are still a better option. They are far less expensive and offer better opportunities. No one is saying they are perfect but relative to for-profit schools, they are a better option provided one complete their degree with a competitive GPA.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

May I ask the general field? I'm not doubting you, I've just never heard of this problem with a BA.

My BA might as well have been in horse and carriage design, but it didn't limit me.

Basically TV/Movie production (pre/post). All behind the camera stuff, not anything to do with TV news. Yes they've got the Cronkite school but it's very limited in its scope.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by jimj

Basically TV/Movie production (pre/post). All behind the camera stuff, not anything to do with TV news. Yes they've got the Cronkite school but it's very limited in its scope.

Oh that's really cool. Best wishes to your son! That's exciting

I understand where you are coming from now. I can see how he may not have gotten what he was seeking.