Phoenix area cities in most need of mass transit improvements (Scottsdale: construction, schools)

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

Everybody knows economic reasons are just the city's phony excuse to hide the true reason they are against it: to keep the undesirables out.

It is primarily economic, what else would it be? Light rail is very costly, and the city would have the obligation of financing a good part of it. I'm sure another reason is they don't want Scottsdale Road or any of Old Town to be torn up for light rail construction when it can (and does) hurt business ... that is calculated into the economic equation as well.

I don't buy the argument about keeping the riff raff out because everybody knows that the so called undesirables still frequent Scottsdale to shop, dine, drink, and partake in the nightlife. You don't have to be wealthy to have fun in Scottsdale. If that was the case, only the millionaires would be shopping, dining, and living there, and the downtown area would likely be inactive. The riff raff can easily use the bus system or drive their own cars to Scottsdale anyway.

[cab591]

As someone who studies traffic engineering, urban development and sustainability, I'll throw in my $0.02:

First, we need to make the distinction between light rail and heavy (commuter) rail. Light rail typically follows streets (but is segregated from traffic). It often gets signal priority, but will still occasionally have to wait for lights. The average speed of a light rail system is about 17mph. Fun fact: you can average this same speed on a quality road bike. This low average speed is due to stops being so close together -- typically 1 mile, or 1/2 mile between stops. The Phoenix area light rail system is a perfect example of this.

Heavy rail, often called commuter rail, runs on regular train tracks. These do not follow roads, except in urban corridors, where they may follow alongside roads. If they do have at-grade crossings with roads, it will be a typical barrier-crossing. Commuter rail typically operates between 30-50 mph. A good example of this is the CalTran, BART, or the LIRR. These trains resemble regular train passenger cars, and stations are usually found in city-centers, linking one city to anther without stops in between.

Bus Rapid Transit runs similar to light rail, but uses cheaper-to-implement buses. Systems are often separated from traffic with designated lanes or even curbs. Buses are specially designed to have level-platforms, eliminating steps and ramps for passengers, and fares are often paid at the station in advance, before the bus arrives. The best example of this is TransMilenio, in Bogata, Columbia (YouTube link).

While I agree with Pink Jazz, that the Phoenix area needs to expand its transit system, I do not believe expanding the light rail system is the way to go. Light rail is great when it runs around a compact, downtown area. However, it is not good for long distance commuting. The Phoenix metro area is simply too spread out for light rail to be a realistic solution. If you live in Queen Creek, and commute to Downtown Phoenix, a 40 minute drive, it would take approximately 2 hours at light-rail-speeds. People will not use transit if it cannot compete with cars.

The rail infrastructure is already in place, however, to introduce commuter rail to the Phoenix area. Freight lines cross the valley. A new freight line now bypasses the Valley, so freight traffic no longer passes through as often. If the cities of the Phoenix area worked together on legislation to bring commuter rail back to these lines, it could easily compete with cars. There's a rail line that runs from Queen Creek, through downtown Gilbert, up to Mesa, which then turns towards Tempe, crosses the lake, and heads into downtown Phoenix. Even with a stop in each city center, this trip would take approximately 40 minutes to 1 hour (depending on system operation speed), bringing it closer to the speed of cars. This same rail line also runs down Grand Ave, running near downtown Glendale, and out towards Surprise. The only areas of the Valley not linked by existing rail lines are North Phoenix, Paradise Valley, and Scottsdale. These areas would be best served by new rail lines, that could run along the existing right of ways created by the freeways. Commuter Rail service could run every half hour, heading towards downtown Phoenix during morning rush hour, and away from downtown Phoenix during evening rush hour. This system would also allow for inter-metro service between the Phoenix area and Tucson.

As far as tax dollars going towards transit -- this is really an argument of public good. I'm in my mid-20's, with no family / kids, yet my tax dollars go to schools and city parks. I primarily ride my bike (although do use the roads occasionally), and yet my tax dollars are going towards the loop 303 project, something I will never use. Arguing that you don't like transit projects, because you won't be benefited by them, is a poor argument. In fact, an expanded transit system will benefit some Valley residents, which will decrease traffic along your commute. Multiple traffic studies, meanwhile, have shown that adding a lane of freeway (like the current project on the 101) has zero effect on reducing traffic.

As a side note: I am a car enthusiast, and race cars monthly. I enjoy long road trips. I don't enjoy putting unnecessary miles on my nice cars, and needlessly burn gas, sitting in traffic. That's not driving -- that's sitting.

[Pink Jazz]

^

I see your concerns, but as far as transit systems go, speed does not bring in revenue to transit systems, ridership does, and since commuter rail would miss many important catchment areas that light rail can reach (such as malls and major employment centers), plus the much lower frequency of commuter rail, ridership will probably be much lower than for light rail. I'm not sure if a commuter rail along Grand would even be viable, since the limited stop GL bus doesn't get a lot of ridership.

Fact is, what brings in ridership is access and frequency, not speed.

[Renegade007]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

^

I see your concerns, but as far as transit systems go, speed does not bring in revenue to transit systems, ridership does, and since commuter rail would miss many important catchment areas that light rail can reach (such as malls and major employment centers), plus the much lower frequency of commuter rail, ridership will probably be much lower than for light rail. I'm not sure if a commuter rail along Grand would even be viable, since the limited stop GL bus doesn't get a lot of ridership.

Fact is, what brings in ridership is access and frequency, not speed.

People in Surprise, El Mirage and the Sun Cities would certainly benefit from a light rail line along Grand. There's already a (heavy freight) rail system in place. I'm not a transit engineer, but it shouldn't take much to install a light rail line there, or replace one of the existing freight lines. Just extend it to 7th Avenue or so, and then east to Central Station.

[ddandano]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Ridiculous idea.

We all pay taxes to support mass transit as part of the public good just like we pay taxes for schools, police, firefighters, libraries, and many other things you probably use but take for granted.
So you are equating police and fire services to public funding of buses? If that is what you are doing it is hard to take you seriously.

Converting transit and those other things to the private sector would make the cost of those services out of reach for people who depend on them.
Privatization (almost) always results in lower end user prices.

The quality of the services wouldn't always be better either, private prisons turned out to be a major disaster for the state if you care to use that as a good example.
I think that you undermine your case by bringing in comparisons like private prisons and law enforcement. Those comparisons are obviously not relevant in that they deal with public safety which is a legitimate function of government.

[cab591]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

^

I see your concerns, but as far as transit systems go, speed does not bring in revenue to transit systems, ridership does, and since commuter rail would miss many important catchment areas that light rail can reach (such as malls and major employment centers), plus the much lower frequency of commuter rail, ridership will probably be much lower than for light rail. I'm not sure if a commuter rail along Grand would even be viable, since the limited stop GL bus doesn't get a lot of ridership.

Fact is, what brings in ridership is access and frequency, not speed.

I would argue that, while access and frequency are definitely major concerns of public transit, speed is still a huge factor. If it takes 3x as long to take a train, than it does to drive from A to B -- I'm going to take my car. The train doesn't necessarily have to be *faster*, as long as it's still in competition. Easy access, and the frequency of service, should also be high in high density areas -- but having frequent service to far flung, low density exurbs is just not economically feasible.

Light rail is implemented at a much higher cost to a heavy rail system, and outlying areas are easiest served by bus (bus routes are also easier to adjust to fit growing needs). So, building a robust bus system around the backbone of a heavy rail system would make more sense for a dense area.

Imagine if a commuter train stopped at a station in each of the city's downtown areas. Then, each city ran its own bus system (or street car, or light rail, etc) to connect suburbs with the downtown station, or other areas across their city. In this system, you could leave your house in Gilbert, take a Gilbert city bus to the downtown Gilbert train station, board a heavy rail train, and get off in downtown Phoenix shortly after leaving.

[ddandano]

Keep in mind the fact that these systems are funded with OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY! It is just sick to hear people iron out details of how they will spend OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by ddandano

Keep in mind the fact that these systems are funded with OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY! It is just sick to hear people iron out details of how they will spend OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

Welcome to the United States of America!

It's probably just better for you to not think about your federal tax dollars going to help pay for highways/roads/mass transit throughout all 50 states, which you probably won't ever use in your lifetime.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

^

I see your concerns, but as far as transit systems go, speed does not bring in revenue to transit systems, ridership does, and since commuter rail would miss many important catchment areas that light rail can reach (such as malls and major employment centers), plus the much lower frequency of commuter rail, ridership will probably be much lower than for light rail. I'm not sure if a commuter rail along Grand would even be viable, since the limited stop GL bus doesn't get a lot of ridership.

Fact is, what brings in ridership is access and frequency, not speed.

Speed matters when you start talking about light rail from Queen Creek or even Gilbert. No one is going to give up their car, which can get them to work MUCH MUCH faster, to sit on that train.

[JayProAZ]

I honestly think they need to extend the bus line to Apache Junction as well. Its too damn far from anywhere lol