"In Phoenix, signs of a downtown ready to thrive again" article (Tucson: apartment complex, rent)

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

Sadly, Glendale city council on Monday killed their light rail plans, "pulling a Scottsdale". God I dislike Republicans....

I know, this was another underhanded move by the same city council who stuck the taxpayers with a $300 million deal to keep the NHL team that very few people care about.

It's obvious where their priorities are.

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

I feel bad for the WV. Their biggest suburb is one haphazardly run dumpster fire.

So Glendale passes a sales tax hike to extend the rail, then decides against building the rail, and now wants to use that money to annex more land and build more houses instead. I'm shocked!

In their council meeting they expressed skittishness from being burned by the Coyotes. As if they don't understand why nobody goes to the Coyotes games--hint it's transportation.

And Mesa isn’t a haphazardly run dumpster fire? Let’s not mention that Mesa has a population that exceeds the likes of Atlanta, Miami, and Minneapolis, but yet no one outside of a 200 mile radius of Mesa knows anything about it. Running some train down the median of Glendale Avenue out to Westgate would not turn Glendale around. No one from the East Valley is going to sit on the light rail for 2+ hours from Mesa to Glendale, stopping at lights and stations that are a mile apart when they can just drive.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by new2colo

And Mesa isn’t a haphazardly run dumpster fire? Let’s not mention that Mesa has a population that exceeds the likes of Atlanta, Miami, and Minneapolis, but yet no one outside of a 200 mile radius of Mesa knows anything about it. Running some train down the median of Glendale Avenue out to Westgate would not turn Glendale around. No one from the East Valley is going to sit on the light rail for 2+ hours from Mesa to Glendale, stopping at lights and stations that are a mile apart when they can just drive.

I would have, though obviously from Downtown, not Mesa

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by new2colo

And Mesa isn’t a haphazardly run dumpster fire? Let’s not mention that Mesa has a population that exceeds the likes of Atlanta, Miami, and Minneapolis, but yet no one outside of a 200 mile radius of Mesa knows anything about it. Running some train down the median of Glendale Avenue out to Westgate would not turn Glendale around. No one from the East Valley is going to sit on the light rail for 2+ hours from Mesa to Glendale, stopping at lights and stations that are a mile apart when they can just drive.

Who's talking about Mesa?

Mesa didnt just steal tax payer money to hand over to developers, lying directly to their faces.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by new2colo

No one from the East Valley is going to sit on the light rail for 2+ hours from Mesa to Glendale, stopping at lights and stations that are a mile apart when they can just drive.

That's the thing, you elevate the line (except for maybe downtown) and the cost of construction rises dramatically, but the trains move so much quicker. Or you place the line along the freeway/interstate ROW and the trains move quicker, but it's not necessarily the most convenient for people to get to the line. Too bad there wasn't numerous old RR ROW that they could have used, so the trains would be basically like freight with no traffic lights, and the cars stop for the trains.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

It's only going to go as far as Grand Ave&67th, because a good chunk of Central Glendale and the Alhambra section of Phoenix would have to be bought and demolished to extend it those 5 extra miles, and we already saw what happened with the now cancelled AZ 50/Paradise Parkway

What does that matter? Demolition of established neighborhoods happened frequently during the '80s & '90s to construct the 10 inner loop and the 51 freeway. My old neighborhood was one of the affected areas. The house I grew up in was demolished to make room for the 51 freeway right of way, and many of the homes that remained had their once through streets turned into cul de sacs. Progress happens. A freeway/expressway cutting through a piece of Glendale or Alhambra might actually create some neighborhood improvement.

By the way, the main reason the 50 (Paradise Parkway) ended up being scrapped was strong vocal NIMBYism among people who lived along & near the freeway's proposed path. That combined with ADOT's mis managed funds & budget shortfalls caused the whole project to be eliminated, along with several other proposed routes at the time. Grand Avenue was actually supposed to be turned into a freeway, but that proposal was trashed. As a result, Grand remains a surface street with a scattering of overpasses at many of the major intersections (which do very little if anything to relieve the traffic on Grand).

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

What does that matter? Demolition of established neighborhoods happened frequently during the '80s & '90s to construct the 10 inner loop and the 51 freeway. My old neighborhood was one of the affected areas. The house I grew up in was demolished to make room for the 51 freeway right of way, and many of the homes that remained had their once through streets turned into cul de sacs. Progress happens. A freeway/expressway cutting through a piece of Glendale or Alhambra might actually create some neighborhood improvement.

By the way, the main reason the 50 (Paradise Parkway) ended up being scrapped was strong vocal NIMBYism among people who lived along & near the freeway's proposed path. That combined with ADOT's mis managed funds & budget shortfalls caused the whole project to be eliminated, along with several other proposed routes at the time. Grand Avenue was actually supposed to be turned into a freeway, but that proposal was trashed. As a result, Grand remains a surface street with a scattering of overpasses at many of the major intersections (which do very little if anything to relieve the traffic on Grand).

I remember that Grand was supposed to become a full freeway, shame that didn't happen. But the other reason for the cancellation of AZ 50 was stupid Fyfe Symington, who also cancelled the Loop 303 and Loop 202 South Mountain; which both fortunately got brought back from the dead.

I think the biggest obstacle to extending Northern Parkway east of 67th Ave at this point is cost. Land values and construction materials are way more expensive now than they were when the 51 and 10 were built.

I would bet that just to extend Northern Parkway those 5 extra miles from 67th&Grand to I-17 could cost $1billion; which would be $200million per mile or $33million per lane mile if 6 lanes. Not even the 202 South Mountain has a lane mile cost that high, and it's considered our most expensive freeway to date

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

By the way, the main reason the 50 (Paradise Parkway) ended up being scrapped was strong vocal NIMBYism among people who lived along & near the freeway's proposed path. That combined with ADOT's mis managed funds & budget shortfalls caused the whole project to be eliminated, along with several other proposed routes at the time. Grand Avenue was actually supposed to be turned into a freeway, but that proposal was trashed. As a result, Grand remains a surface street with a scattering of overpasses at many of the major intersections (which do very little if anything to relieve the traffic on Grand).

Um, the fact that it was ridiculous to have an east-west freeway some 3 miles north of an existing east-west freeway had something to do with it as well.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

I remember that Grand was supposed to become a full freeway, shame that didn't happen. But the other reason for the cancellation of AZ 50 was stupid Fyfe Symington, who also cancelled the Loop 303 and Loop 202 South Mountain; which both fortunately got brought back from the dead.

I think the biggest obstacle to extending Northern Parkway east of 67th Ave at this point is cost. Land values and construction materials are way more expensive now than they were when the 51 and 10 were built.

I would bet that just to extend Northern Parkway those 5 extra miles from 67th&Grand to I-17 could cost $1billion; which would be $200million per mile or $33million per lane mile if 6 lanes. Not even the 202 South Mountain has a lane mile cost that high, and it's considered our most expensive freeway to date

Symington axed those projects mainly as a response to ADOT's mis management & their claims that they didn't have enough money to finish the freeways at the time. It took an extension of the half cent tax in 2004 to finally get some of these projects going again, such as Loop 303 and the 202 South Mountain extension. Of course, NIMBYs were largely responsible for killing the Paradise Parkway & the South Mountain Freeway initially. And I'd be willing to bet that if Northern Parkway would be proposed to extend to I17, there would be NIMBYism like you wouldn't believe. The costs are only one part of it.

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

Um, the fact that it was ridiculous to have an east-west freeway some 3 miles north of an existing east-west freeway had something to do with it as well.

A crosstown freeway is needed between the 10 & the 101. There is too much of a gap between those two freeways, and it's slower than hell to get from many points in east Phoenix to the west side because it's all surface streets (unless you detour to the 10 or 101). Those who conceived the idea of the Paradise Parkway back in the 1980s were forward thinking & they looked at the big picture. NIMBYs on the other hand are very backward, regressive, and have narrow tunnel vision.

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

Um, the fact that it was ridiculous to have an east-west freeway some 3 miles north of an existing east-west freeway had something to do with it as well.

I suspect you haven't driven on the I-10 in West Valley during rush hour in quite some time.