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I'm surprised you didn't list Knight Transportation, I thought they were a Fortune 500
I just grabbed list online, I didn't type it out myself. I think Knight is only about $1B per year in revenue and Fortune 500 needs quite a bit more than that. The smallest fortune 1000 is $1.1B. If this Swift merger goes through the combined company will be a big player in transportation.
Texas has high property taxes and has toll roads which most people hate. Even members of Texas's legislature are drafting bills to try to convert the toll roads to free roads. That's how unpopular they are
I'd be in favor of some toll roads, so long as they would be built with private money ... otherwise, it would be double taxation to have taxes pay for the roads, and then charge a toll on top of it. I wouldn't be in favor of that. With ADOT stalling on so many needed projects that were approved by the voters over 12 years ago, I think having some of these things privatized could speed up construction and keep the costs down somewhat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
I wholeheartedly agree with Phoenix continuing to focus on jobs and the economy but I disagree that were viewed as a quiet retirement town by anyone educated and at least somewhat traveled.
Precisely why I said that image seems to be prevalent among those who haven't been here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Your assessment of Phoenix, as a native, is actually interesting to me. Saying we aren't trying to be like LA or Chicago but more like Houston or Dallas? Houston and Dallas are both powerhouse towns for business, they rank number #3 and #4 nationally, both ahead of places like LA, San Fran, Seattle, Philly, Atlanta, Minneapolis etc. Striving to be better is great but assuming were going to jump ahead of everyone between us and #3 and #4 is pretty damn ambitious.
I never said we aren't trying to be like L.A. or Chicago, and more like Houston & Dallas. I said that we don't need to copy L.A., NYC, or Chicago, and we should strive to be more like the big Texas cities (specifically Dallas & Houston). If we focus more on being business oriented and attract more professional types, we could be in serious competition with Houston & Dallas. Phoenix definitely has potential to be a world class city and more of a national/global destination than what it currently is. If we quit focusing so much on the climate, snowbirds, the desert, and how cheap it is compared to other cities, this would be possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
This brings me to another understanding, long time residents seem to have this view that Phoenix is doing so poorly and everywhere else is so much better. I know it's easy to get the "grass is always greener" feeling but trust me, it's not all good everywhere else. Houston is suffering some pretty massive economic challenges right now with the oil price collapse, it's economy is a powerhouse but it is very focused on energy, so any challenges in that sector mean rough times for Houston.
True, but at the same time, Phoenix has focused too much on real estate & home construction, and that's why our economy took a serious downturn between 2008 & 2010. Our economy isn't diversified enough. We can still have a good real estate market and be affordable (not cheap), but it's essential to focus on other market sectors as well: electronics, banking/finance, manufacturing, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
On the other hand, Phoenix actually packs a decent punch. Compare us to San Diego for example, quite a bit more economic activity here then there, despite SD being in a really nice location weather wise.
Some of that is because San Diego is in the shadow of L.A. (less than 100 miles apart from each other). San Diego at one time was very fast growing, and was even slightly larger than Phoenix prior to the 1990s, but it has become very expensive to live & do business there. Since they don't have a robust job market, this has a way of stifling growth. Their growth rate lately is tiny compared to Phoenix and many other cities. They do have great weather (the best in the nation in my opinion), but like I said before: sunshine & nice weather alone won't get you a good paying job or pay the bills!
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
We have 15 Fortune 1000's, it was 16 before Petsmart went private for restructuing. ithis puts us around the same levels as Seattle, Denver, Miami, Charlotte, St. Louis, Cleveland, and so on. Are these cities you'd also consider quiet with not much of an economy?
Not Seattle so much, but the rest of them, yes. Besides, all those other cities are much smaller than Phoenix, so I would expect Phoenix to be at a higher corporate level anyway.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
I posted articles with facts about jobs moving here that include quotes from decision makers speaking to the employee base of the valley, specifically silicon valley employers that were overly joyed about how great it was to have employees in Phoenix who wanted to stay the course instead of jump to the next big startup as is the norm in places like silicon valley.
I also provided examples from my 12 years in the valley working, attending school and volunteering alongside many great mentors and acquaintances. You provided a very narrow opinion with the only data point being the less then 0.5% of the valley population who happens to post on here.
The Mayor of Phoenix should be doing more as should every other mayor in every other city. And you can't build wealth without decent job opportunities, otherwise we'd all be in the deep south.
You posted articles about companies following migration trends, but you interpreted/spun it in a way to justify to yourself why Phoenix is some great city. By the way, the words you used "...employees in Phoenix who wanted to stay the course instead of jump to the next big startup..." sort of negate your argument about ambition. You're referring to people who want to get ahead and make their situations better in Silicon Valley, but are claiming that people in Phoenix will take the job and coast through. I can't get ahead at my company, and I'm driven, so I will jump ship rather than idle through life.
I specifically wrote about people I have directly worked with, and did not even mention people who post on this thread. I think it's hilarious that you try to negate one statement while using the same data source to promote your own, i.e. people you know.
First, I will contend the disparagement of the entire Deep South, when economically Atlanta is doing much better than Phoenix. Second, the mayor can do only so much. If the current trend is people moving here for cheap housing and sunshine, then it's going to be an uphill battle to get a bigger share of people moving here for dynamic job opportunities and because it's a great place to be. And as you noticed, other mayors do take notice of these trends, and one good mayor with foresight and dedication could help shift the trend, for instance Mayors LaGuardia of New York and Daley of Chicago. In their respective times, they helped to keep their cities moving forward when they faced adversity, yet Phoenix fails time after time to put a strong mayor in office. Progress in Phoenix is very slow, which is bad at a time in which it needs to move much faster. If Phoenix stays its course, when trends inevitably change it'll either decline in population or just grow slower than other cities. Just look at Baltimore, which was one of the top 10 largest cities in every census until 1990. Other cities, such as St. Louis and New Orleans, had historical significance and importance, which waned in time as trends changed. Phoenix is not magically immune from this, and based on how I've seen things go here I have little confidence in its future.
Texas has high property taxes and has toll roads which most people hate. Even members of Texas's legislature are drafting bills to try to convert the toll roads to free roads. That's how unpopular they are
Florida does the same thing with toll roads and high sales tax. That no-income tax thing gets paid by the 99% so the 1% can have their tax havens via this smoke and mirrors. No free lunch.
Texas has high property taxes and has toll roads which most people hate. Even members of Texas's legislature are drafting bills to try to convert the toll roads to free roads. That's how unpopular they are
I've lived in DFW for the last 22 years and it's possible to get anywhere you want--on freeways--without having to drive on toll roads.
Don't want to drive on Dallas North Tollway? Use Central Expy. Don't want to pay to drive on PGBT? Use LBJ (I-635). With its expansion complete, one can even choose toll or free on LBJ. They have managed toll lanes.
I have an NTTA tolltag, which I'd guess the majority of those driving in Dallas have, but I use it very sparingly. I certainly don't use it to get to the job from Garland to Addison five days a week.
You posted articles about companies following migration trends, but you interpreted/spun it in a way to justify to yourself why Phoenix is some great city. By the way, the words you used "...employees in Phoenix who wanted to stay the course instead of jump to the next big startup..." sort of negate your argument about ambition. You're referring to people who want to get ahead and make their situations better in Silicon Valley, but are claiming that people in Phoenix will take the job and coast through. I can't get ahead at my company, and I'm driven, so I will jump ship rather than idle through life.
I specifically wrote about people I have directly worked with, and did not even mention people who post on this thread. I think it's hilarious that you try to negate one statement while using the same data source to promote your own, i.e. people you know.
First, I will contend the disparagement of the entire Deep South, when economically Atlanta is doing much better than Phoenix. Second, the mayor can do only so much. If the current trend is people moving here for cheap housing and sunshine, then it's going to be an uphill battle to get a bigger share of people moving here for dynamic job opportunities and because it's a great place to be. And as you noticed, other mayors do take notice of these trends, and one good mayor with foresight and dedication could help shift the trend, for instance Mayors LaGuardia of New York and Daley of Chicago. In their respective times, they helped to keep their cities moving forward when they faced adversity, yet Phoenix fails time after time to put a strong mayor in office. Progress in Phoenix is very slow, which is bad at a time in which it needs to move much faster. If Phoenix stays its course, when trends inevitably change it'll either decline in population or just grow slower than other cities. Just look at Baltimore, which was one of the top 10 largest cities in every census until 1990. Other cities, such as St. Louis and New Orleans, had historical significance and importance, which waned in time as trends changed. Phoenix is not magically immune from this, and based on how I've seen things go here I have little confidence in its future.
First off those aren't my words those are the words of the T&N founder and if you read their article you will see it's a glowing recommendation of Phoenix through and through as a great place to start and grow a business. They have continually been a booster of the city and speaking highly of both the quality of people here and the city itself. Surely you can understand that it's rare to see a company go out of their way to write these types of articles as they're in no way obligated to do so. And yes, staying the course and not jumping ship to the next "hot" startup is commendable and speaks to a different mindset then what they experienced in Silicon Valley where folks will leave on a dime to make a few extra bucks.
You did mention people who post on this thread as a argument to people only moving here for weather, that's not true at all, I work with a lot of people who do not care for our weather but they know other options have less opportunity be it a smaller city with less jobs options or a more expensive city that woul bury them in debt.
I don't understand your idea that Phoenix is slow moving either, in what regard? What trend did Chicago shift? They're still losing people and the murder rate in parts of that town are nothing short of astounding. I don't have any desire to live in either of these places and I've had options for jobs in both. What I like about the valley is that we're building something new and different, it's big but still flexible and not set in its ways to the point of refusing to adapt. Downtown Phoenix in 1990 was a ghost town, now it's filled with top schools from ASU, an expanding public transit system, restaraunts, theaters, sports and business are taking notice and choosing to locate there... banner health HQs, Uber, Quicken, Double Dutch etc... the mayor has remained committed to creating a thriving urban core and I'm excited to watch the profrsss continue. In Chicago and NYC these things are pretty much taken for granted and downtowns are already built up, expensive, and as a newcomer to the city nobody is really too excited to welcome you in. In Phoenix I talk to owners of restaraunts, coffee shops, and small performing arts venues like lost leaf who are really excited about what's happening. This energy is something I love to see and be a part of.
You do sound pretty unhappy here so best of luck in finding a new place that suits your needs. I've found my home and plan to continue to be a part of Phoenix as long as I'm roaming the planet. The big, old established cities are fun to visit but I like what we're doing here.
My experience in Phoenix and the US overall is somewhere between dvxhd and locolife:
1. We do NOT attract the top talent to Phoenix. If you're top of your class and have option all over the country in my experience you choose the West Coast cities over Phoenix
2. We attract mostly people who want to retire cheaply or live cheaply, more the "nickle and dime" people. People who want to take it more easy and that is definitively part of our work culture in the Valley. This goes both ways - our workforce and management style. How often have I seen IT projects hit the wall because the default management style is to use $50/h H1B contractors who have no idea what they are doing, but they are "cheap".
3. There are two personality types in the US: a) high achievers who do not mind paying huge upfront costs to live say in coastal California knowing that their RE prices will outpace any other place with cheaper upfront costs like Phoenix. They understand they will come out ahead in the long run. b) people who want more now for their money, live under less debt and stress, take things more easy and cannot have delayed gratification. The latter ones are attracted by Phoenix.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's a matter of choice.
My experience in Phoenix and the US overall is somewhere between dvxhd and locolife:
1. We do NOT attract the top talent to Phoenix. If you're top of your class and have option all over the country in my experience you choose the West Coast cities over Phoenix
2. We attract mostly people who want to retire cheaply or live cheaply, more the "nickle and dime" people. People who want to take it more easy and that is definitively part of our work culture in the Valley. This goes both ways - our workforce and management style. How often have I seen IT projects hit the wall because the default management style is to use $50/h H1B contractors who have no idea what they are doing, but they are "cheap".
3. There are two personality types in the US: a) high achievers who do not mind paying huge upfront costs to live say in coastal California knowing that their RE prices will outpace any other place with cheaper upfront costs like Phoenix. They understand they will come out ahead in the long run. b) people who want more now for their money, live under less debt and stress, take things more easy and cannot have delayed gratification. The latter ones are attracted by Phoenix.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's a matter of choice.
Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment of things here. I'm not saying we're pulling in the next Elon Musk but let's be real, a very small % of the population fit into that category. I do think we strike a pretty decent balance between working and living which is a beautiful part of life here in my opinion. I have not found it difficult to get ahead here, hard work in my career has been recognized and rewarded. My peers run the gamut from former entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley to New Yorkers who worked on Wall Street previously. Many of those folks grew tired of the rat race but still work their tails off when a project calls for it. I've seen our company hire highly talented individuals who were actually more excited to come to Phoenix than we initially expected. We've also seen people leave, sometimes to be closer to family but usually for other job opportunities.
I don't think we're perfect but I don't think we're a total slouch that some people seem to believe either. I've also experienced enough of the top talent lifestyle to know it's not as gmalorous as it's made out to be. And has its own sets of issues and challenges.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
First off those aren't my words those are the words of the T&N founder and if you read their article you will see it's a glowing recommendation of Phoenix through and through as a great place to start and grow a business. They have continually been a booster of the city and speaking highly of both the quality of people here and the city itself. Surely you can understand that it's rare to see a company go out of their way to write these types of articles as they're in no way obligated to do so. And yes, staying the course and not jumping ship to the next "hot" startup is commendable and speaks to a different mindset then what they experienced in Silicon Valley where folks will leave on a dime to make a few extra bucks.
You did mention people who post on this thread as a argument to people only moving here for weather, that's not true at all, I work with a lot of people who do not care for our weather but they know other options have less opportunity be it a smaller city with less jobs options or a more expensive city that woul bury them in debt.
I don't understand your idea that Phoenix is slow moving either, in what regard? What trend did Chicago shift? They're still losing people and the murder rate in parts of that town are nothing short of astounding. I don't have any desire to live in either of these places and I've had options for jobs in both. What I like about the valley is that we're building something new and different, it's big but still flexible and not set in its ways to the point of refusing to adapt. Downtown Phoenix in 1990 was a ghost town, now it's filled with top schools from ASU, an expanding public transit system, restaraunts, theaters, sports and business are taking notice and choosing to locate there... banner health HQs, Uber, Quicken, Double Dutch etc... the mayor has remained committed to creating a thriving urban core and I'm excited to watch the profrsss continue. In Chicago and NYC these things are pretty much taken for granted and downtowns are already built up, expensive, and as a newcomer to the city nobody is really too excited to welcome you in. In Phoenix I talk to owners of restaraunts, coffee shops, and small performing arts venues like lost leaf who are really excited about what's happening. This energy is something I love to see and be a part of.
You do sound pretty unhappy here so best of luck in finding a new place that suits your needs. I've found my home and plan to continue to be a part of Phoenix as long as I'm roaming the planet. The big, old established cities are fun to visit but I like what we're doing here.
So, you passed off someone else's words as your own? You certainly wrote it that way. And you must be pretty gullible regarding companies. Very few of them are going to trash the city they're located in. Companies do want to safeguard their image after all. I'd use your "surely you can see" comment on that, but it's pretty clear you can't. And again, people in Silicon Valley will jump ship if there's no incentive for them to stay, or if they can do better at a rival company. That's ambition and determination, and companies are saying people aren't like that in Phoenix. That suggests people are more content not getting ahead here. What about that is so hard for your to understand?
I'm going to take it you didn't look up who Mayor Daley was and when he was in office, because you're looking at Chicago now. At the time, people were leaving that part of the country in droves and he worked to keep Chicago growing. Under him, Chicago vastly improved its transportation network and the economy was strong. It seems today that city doesn't have as good leadership as it used to. That being said, high-rise development is pitiful in Phoenix, though many other cities are experiencing a boom and have a lot of new skyscrapers under construction. This town can't even get high-speed, long distance commuter rail going, and a more comprehensive light rail network is years away. Amtrak hasn't served Phoenix in years, and Union Station is quietly sitting neglected. Sky Harbor isn't really attracting any new international flights, and after this most recent merger it's likely American will start reducing service in time as it did with St. Louis after acquiring TWA. It is funny that you accuse the downtown areas of New York and Chicago to be expensive, when housing in Downtown Phoenix isn't exactly cheap, but I don't see what one is getting out of living there aside from superficiality to make themselves feel better.
It's great if you want to live here and be a part of whatever this is, but I don't. Maybe it's because I've been all over the world, and Phoenix is just pretty lackluster when I know what I'm missing. I'm talking about hundreds of towns and cities across six continents. That experience helps me to better define what I want out of a home, and it's definitely not a dead end place like this. I've been on the job hunt and I'm afraid the Phoenix address is hurting me, whether that's distance or stigma of being here. The easy way out would be to do what almost everyone else here does by giving up and not living where I'd prefer to live and then tell everyone living here was the plan all along while I B.S. myself into thinking that.
I think Hunter S. Thompson put it best "If there is in fact, a heaven and a hell, all we know for sure is that hell will be a viciously overcrowded version of Phoenix—a clean well lighted place full of sunshine and bromides and fast cars where almost everybody seems vaguely happy, except those who know in their hearts what is missing...And being driven slowly and quietly into the kind of terminal craziness that comes with finally understanding that the one thing you want is not there." I don't want that for myself. I have motivation and drive, and expect better of myself than rotting away here.
So, you passed off someone else's words as your own? You certainly wrote it that way.
Not at all, I put this quote in quotation marks and provided you with a link that you clearly ignored.
It is very clear you don't like Phoenix and it's also clear you don't know a whole lot about it. But hey, Chicago is looking for people as the city is shrinking again, so you should be able to find a place there rather easily. Best of luck to you!
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