Phoenix Regains Title of 5th Most Populous City in US (Mesa: insurance, restaurant)

[kemahkami]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

In Phoenix, a good share of the resistance to build taller comes from a combination of overly strict zoning and vocal NIMBYs who don't want "their" mountain views spoiled.

Yep, US cities in general are very restrictive when it comes to zoning ordinances. Not only do they tend to prevent taller buildings, they also encourage outward sprawl, since in-town development options are blocked by the NIMBYs you reference.

The lack of zoning is one of many benefits seen in Houston. Thus, development patterns follow the market demand - you can have commercial storefront going up quickly in neighborhoods right where people can easily access them, instead of having to clear across town like in zoned areas. There are also no worries in Houston about NIMBYs and local government stifling development, in turn maintaining relative in-town affordability compared to other major metros.

[Bates419]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

It’s out of the way for everybody not in the west valley. Nobody in central Phoenix or east of it is going to west gate unless they have to. That’s 3/4 of the metro

That's how every area of every City in the world works? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Bates419

That's how every area of every City in the world works? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

You said it’s only the EV that’s not true

[Bates419]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

You said it’s only the EV that’s not true

Anything on the West of Center can get to Westgate in under 30 minutes most times, that's not exactly out of the way. Heck it's 30 minutes from North Scottsdale. You write as if it's Wickenberg.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by Bates419

Anything on the West of Center can get to Westgate in under 30 minutes most times, that's not exactly out of the way. Heck it's 30 minutes from North Scottsdale. You write as if it's Wickenberg.

It’s 45 minutes for me without any traffic. And for what? Why would I spend an hour and a half of my day commuting out there? That’s the point. There’s no value in making the hike there for much of the valley.

[Bates419]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

It’s 45 minutes for me without any traffic. And for what? Why would I spend an hour and a half of my day commuting out there? That’s the point. There’s no value in making the hike there for much of the valley.

The discussion isn't about anyone making the trip from their own area to go there, that makes no sense. The discussion was about the arena and stadium being there and there was no reason to ever go to Westgate. Obviously if you want to watch hockey or football there is a reason and for those who live closer Westgate is worth visiting. You joined the conversation late and for some reason think someone is suggesting people drive past more convenient areas to them to go to Westgate just to eat. That would be a stupid suggestion.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

If that's your thesis, then it should go without saying that the million+ people who live on the West side of town don't bother going to a Suns or Diamondback games. Yet the passionate fans will attend. Just as fans from Mesa and Gilbert will be attending a Monday or Thursday night football Cardinals game. Smarter people than us have studied the demographics and traffic flow. If it doesn't sell out or if it isn't profitable, Scottsdale for instance won't be the answer. It's the product on the ice that will make all of the attendance difference.

Of course the passionate fans will continue to flock to see the Coyotes or the Cardinals ... or in quite a few cases, the snowbirds & new residents will attend games if their home teams are playing against the Coyotes or Cardinals. Regardless, the location of Westgate is horrible for many reasons, not just because it's inconvenient for a large share of the population. I noticed you didn't address my point about Glendale going into the red over this, and sticking the taxpayers with the costs. Even with the Coyotes standing a greater chance of being successful this season, revenue from ticket sales won't even pay the interest of the enormous costs to keep Westgate afloat.

Originally Posted by Bates419

Central Phoenix such as Suns is no easier to get to for a large percentage of Valley residents when you account for parking and getting into building.

Point being that major entertainment & pro sports venues don't belong in a distant suburban location with cotton fields being a stone's throw away. You're also forgetting the fact that not everybody cares to drive. There are very few commuting choices to Westgate other than driving, but there are numerous choices for commuting to downtown Phoenix. I don't go downtown very often, but when I do, I can leave my car at home, take the light rail, and not have to deal with traffic jams or parking. You certainly don't have that option at Westgate!

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

It’s 45 minutes for me without any traffic. And for what? Why would I spend an hour and a half of my day commuting out there? That’s the point. There’s no value in making the hike there for much of the valley.

Exactly! The last time I went to Westgate was in 2010 to see Paul McCartney. I actually thought at the time that it would be the last big performance of his career, but of course I was wrong. Since then, he has performed downtown, and the attendance was greater than when he performed at Westgate. Even in 2010 when I made the long drive over there, it was a major pain for me because it was crosstown traffic: stoplight after stoplight after stoplight, and then dealing with the parking. No thanks!

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by Bates419

I agree with you but the arena is where it is. They needed an arena and only one City stepped up, the others stepped aside. But again why use Gilbert?? Half of the Valley can get to the arena in well under an hour, tgat's not terrible when compared to most markets.

Gilbert was just an example. But I will say this, the majority of hockey fans reside east of the 17. Just think of all the kids. Only one ice rink (aside from Gila River) is located in the West Valley. East of the 17 you have 5 rinks. Ergo, the vast majority of kids playing hockey live on the opposite side of where the Coyotes play.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Of course the passionate fans will continue to flock to see the Coyotes or the Cardinals ... or in quite a few cases, the snowbirds & new residents will attend games if their home teams are playing against the Coyotes or Cardinals. Regardless, the location of Westgate is horrible for many reasons, not just because it's inconvenient for a large share of the population. I noticed you didn't address my point about Glendale going into the red over this, and sticking the taxpayers with the costs. Even with the Coyotes standing a greater chance of being successful this season, revenue from ticket sales won't even pay the interest of the enormous costs to keep Westgate afloat.

I didn't address it because I was focused on having to educate you that people who live close enough to any location will more likely attend the event. And people who are more passionate will go though the hassle of driving farther if need be. So if you put a good product on the field or ice, attendance will go up. It's a pretty basic.

So it seems Detroit (as an example) doesn't give a rats arse about hockey or football. Me either. Well maybe I might try a game or 2 with discounted tickets...

Since you asked, Glendale was idiotic to stick their neck out. Their gamble lost and it didn't come out of their hide of the decision makers.

I come from the school of thought that the sports teams should pick up their own damn tab.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Point being that major entertainment & pro sports venues don't belong in a distant suburban location with cotton fields being a stone's throw away. You're also forgetting the fact that not everybody cares to drive. There are very few commuting choices to Westgate other than driving, but there are numerous choices for commuting to downtown Phoenix. I don't go downtown very often, but when I do, I can leave my car at home, take the light rail, and not have to deal with traffic jams or parking. You certainly don't have that option at Westgate!

If your litmus test is farm fields, look all along the east side of the 101 from McCormick Ranch all the way down to the 202.

The stadium is in the inside of the 101 loop. As the crow flies, it's 5ish miles from the 17 and Westgate via Northern. My point being, inside of a 30 minute drive, I bet you have a couple million people. It's 25 minutes from the airport to Westgate. No, not Mesa or or DT or Gilbert. It would be a nightmare to travel down 10 during rush hour. But welcome to the sprawl. Personally, I'd love a highway that cuts though the 17 to the west side of the 101 loop along Northern. They are doing that as we speak from the 303 to the 101.

I'm not hear to argue that people often won't want to drive 45 minutes one way to see a game. I won't. But we all live in the land of sprawl. Furthermore, you cannot tell me you don't experience long drive times for short distances. On the east side of town and at peak times of the year, it can easily take a few minutes to drive a mile or 30 minutes to drive 10 miles.

My guess is the stadiums assumed big growth on the west side in combination that Football and hockey have plenty of blue collar patrons. Don't confuse that with people who necessarily have less money. Because people in the trades are making more than most college grads. And the business owners are making several hundred grand a year. Our MN lake is full of blue collar business owners making >$500K. Your bosses bosses bosses boss probably makes less. I'm not in the trades (I'm an EE). But all too often, a person or two on this forum likes to judge. But I digress....

To be clear, Westgate is o.k. I like it but it isn't a destination for me. But if your goal is to have a better caliber meal, it's not in Westgate. And the nicer areas of the East side kick the crap out of the chains. No contest. I get that too. It's a trade-off that I am wrestling with (by way of my wife).

Look at the bright side Valley Native, when you buy in Sun City and save your $2000 on school taxes every year, you will be close to the cotton fields and Westgate! That $2K will buy you all kinds of games on Stub Hub AND you will be close! JUST kidding!