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Westgate is actually pretty cool. But sports teams should be located downtown in city center. Having teams in Glendale is just dumb. Cardinals play 8 games there on Sundays, so it's not as bad. But Coyotes play 41 games there all through the week. You're not going to have someone who lives in Gilbert driving all the way to Westgate on a Tuesday night to make a 7 o'clock game. Coyotes games are a blast, but that's not worth the misery of driving there.
Spot on.
We live in north Phoenix and we like to attend sporting events and some concerts. Driving out to SFS or GRA can be a big hassle with the traffic and the distance.
The fact that this city has a lot of sprawl isn't the whole issue. The fact that things are scattered here, there and everywhere is the issue.
Concerts, sports, jobs, and the best eating places should be more centralized than what they are. Even some of the most sprawly cities have these things in or close to their downtown areas.
Spot on.
We live in north Phoenix and we like to attend sporting events and some concerts. Driving out to SFS or GRA can be a big hassle with the traffic and the distance.
The fact that this city has a lot of sprawl isn't the whole issue. The fact that things are scattered here, there and everywhere is the issue.
Concerts, sports, jobs, and the best eating places should be more centralized than what they are. Even some of the most sprawly cities have these things in or close to their downtown areas.
Some do, some don't. There are denser cities have major entertainment/sports venues that are not centrally located. Foxborugh is a long 28 miles from downtown Boston. Suntrust Park in Atlanta is 12.5 miles from downtown. Dallas Cowboys stadium (and Texas Rangers) is 19.2 miles from downtown Dallas. It is 23 miles from downtown Tampa to Tropicana Field. SFS here is 19 miles from downtown Phoenix.
Job centers are always spread out as well, be it Boston that has Metro West and Route 128 job corridors or San Francisco which has the entire East Bay and San Jose breakouts. Seattle as Bellevue and others. This is a pretty common development pattern.
If your litmus test is farm fields, look all along the east side of the 101 from McCormick Ranch all the way down to the 202.
What you're referring to on the east side of the 101 is reservation land. For that matter, it would make zero sense to put a major sports or entertainment center on the SRR (as has been proposed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
The stadium is in the inside of the 101 loop. As the crow flies, it's 5ish miles from the 17 and Westgate via Northern. My point being, inside of a 30 minute drive, I bet you have a couple million people. It's 25 minutes from the airport to Westgate. No, not Mesa or or DT or Gilbert. It would be a nightmare to travel down 10 during rush hour. But welcome to the sprawl. Personally, I'd love a highway that cuts though the 17 to the west side of the 101 loop along Northern. They are doing that as we speak from the 303 to the 101.
I'm not hear to argue that people often won't want to drive 45 minutes one way to see a game. I won't. But we all live in the land of sprawl. Furthermore, you cannot tell me you don't experience long drive times for short distances. On the east side of town and at peak times of the year, it can easily take a few minutes to drive a mile or 30 minutes to drive 10 miles.
Point being that the only way to commute to Westgate is by driving. No other options exist except if you want to include Uber or Lyft services. There is limited bus service, and no light rail. The Westgate area certainly isn't walkable ... unlike downtown Phoenix where if I attended a Suns game or a concert, I could simply walk to a nearby eatery, take in a view at the Hyatt revolving restaurant, go to a museum, etc. I like the freedom of my car, but I also like the choice to leave it at home and use other commuting options to avoid traffic and parking hassles. Westgate doesn't offer this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
Look at the bright side Valley Native, when you buy in Sun City and save your $2000 on school taxes every year, you will be close to the cotton fields and Westgate! That $2K will buy you all kinds of games on Stub Hub AND you will be close! JUST kidding!
Nah, I figure my $2K annual savings on school taxes would buy about 2,000 MINI SODAS. Just kidding.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Some do, some don't. There are denser cities have major entertainment/sports venues that are not centrally located. Foxborugh is a long 28 miles from downtown Boston. Suntrust Park in Atlanta is 12.5 miles from downtown. Dallas Cowboys stadium (and Texas Rangers) is 19.2 miles from downtown Dallas. It is 23 miles from downtown Tampa to Tropicana Field. SFS here is 19 miles from downtown Phoenix.
Are any of those hockey or concert arenas? Also, did any of the above stadiums actually LOSE money like Westgate has? Were any of them bailed out by the municipality which ended up shoving the cost onto the taxpayers? Even if we take out the financial aspects, you only named 5 venues that have a distant suburban location ... out of how many others in the country? The locations of all of them are inconvenient for many people. Understandably, the diehard fans will still make the commute regardless of location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Job centers are always spread out as well, be it Boston that has Metro West and Route 128 job corridors or San Francisco which has the entire East Bay and San Jose breakouts. Seattle as Bellevue and others. This is a pretty common development pattern.
You're forgetting that a good share of corporate HQs in most cities are based in downtown highrises. Most of Phoenix's Fortune 500s are in suburban office parks. Other than San Jose, I really don't know of any other large cities where a good percentage of corporate offices are in suburban styled locations. All this does is make the suburbs more business oriented and congested, which is the opposite of what a suburb is all about.
Last edited by Valley Native; 12-17-2019 at 09:57 AM..
Some do, some don't. There are denser cities have major entertainment/sports venues that are not centrally located. Foxborugh is a long 28 miles from downtown Boston. Suntrust Park in Atlanta is 12.5 miles from downtown. Dallas Cowboys stadium (and Texas Rangers) is 19.2 miles from downtown Dallas. It is 23 miles from downtown Tampa to Tropicana Field. SFS here is 19 miles from downtown Phoenix.
Job centers are always spread out as well, be it Boston that has Metro West and Route 128 job corridors or San Francisco which has the entire East Bay and San Jose breakouts. Seattle as Bellevue and others. This is a pretty common development pattern.
I'm originally from Boston so I know all about Foxboro.
I can see why some football teams are placed away from city centers, they need the extra capacity.
But jobs? No I agree with Valley native on this point. Even a lot of the sprawliest cities have most of their job centers in the downtown areas. Phoenix should too.
I'm originally from Boston so I know all about Foxboro.
I can see why some football teams are placed away from city centers, they need the extra capacity.
But jobs? No I agree with Valley native on this point. Even a lot of the sprawliest cities have most of their job centers in the downtown areas. Phoenix should too.
Why should it? Boston doesn't have most of it's large companies downtown of the fortune 500's in the area only 4 of are in downtown Boston (GE, Liberty Mutual, American Tower and State Street) the rest includin such as TJX, Bose, Staples, BJs, Raytheon, Thermo Fisher Scientific, Boston Scientific, and Biogen are not in Boston.
You're forgetting that a good share of corporate HQs in most cities are based in downtown highrises. Most of Phoenix's Fortune 500s are in suburban office parks. Other than San Jose, I really don't know of any other large cities where a good percentage of corporate offices are in suburban styled locations. All this does is make the suburbs more business oriented and congested, which is the opposite of what a suburb is all about.
Not sure what you're basing that on, I agree Phoenix has less total HQs per capita then cities of its size and therefore less downtown but a lot of fortune 500's are in the same suburban style office parks that Avnet, Republic Services and Insight have here. Just look at the top 10 as a frame of reference:
Walmart (suburban), Exxon Mobil (suburban), Apple (San Jose suburban), Berkshire (borderline high-rise in Omaha), Amazon (highrise), United Health Group (suburban), McKesson (suburban), CVS (suburban RI), AT&T (highrise), AmerisourceBergen(suburban).
So 3 out of 10 in a high-rise, if you count Berkshire in Omaha.
Are you, or are you not a proponent of downtown development and a thriving urban core? I always thought of you as somebody who was, but now I have my doubts. You also thought it was a good idea for the DBacks to relocate to the SRR. Ever consider what would become of Chase Field if that happened? Remove the corporate jobs and pro sports from downtown Phoenix, and the next thing to go is entertainment, eateries, residents, and practically everything else. At that point, it would go back to the way it was in the 1970s through 1990s, and any hope for Phoenix to be a true urban destination would be killed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Not sure what you're basing that on, I agree Phoenix has less total HQs per capita then cities of its size and therefore less downtown but a lot of fortune 500's are in the same suburban style office parks that Avnet, Republic Services and Insight have here. Just look at the top 10 as a frame of reference:
Walmart (suburban), Exxon Mobil (suburban), Apple (San Jose suburban), Berkshire (borderline high-rise in Omaha), Amazon (highrise), United Health Group (suburban), McKesson (suburban), CVS (suburban RI), AT&T (highrise), AmerisourceBergen(suburban).
So 3 out of 10 in a high-rise, if you count Berkshire in Omaha.
You've cited only a few corporations that have suburban HQs, but you didn't list all the corporate offices built in recent years that are located in the central cores:
* 2018: Salesforce Tower built in downtown San Francisco (city's new tallest)
* 2017: Wilshire Grand Center built in downtown L.A. (city's new tallest)
* 2017: Comcast Center built in downtown Philadelphia (city's new tallest)
* 2012: Devon Energy Tower built in downtown Oklahoma City (city's new tallest)
* 2017: Google Tower built in downtown Austin
* 2017: 609 Main at Texas built in downtown Houston (home of United Airlines)
* 2017: F5 Networks Tower built in downtown Seattle
* 2016: Park Avenue West built in downtown Portland, OR (home of Stoel Rives)
* 2010: Blue Cross Blue Shield Tower built in downtown Chicago
These are just some of the newer corporate office towers in various cities built in the last 10 years (and I didn't even include the recent additions in NYC). The list of long standing corporate HQs housed in downtown towers far exceeds this list.
Why should it? Boston doesn't have most of it's large companies downtown of the fortune 500's in the area only 4 of are in downtown Boston (GE, Liberty Mutual, American Tower and State Street) the rest includin such as TJX, Bose, Staples, BJs, Raytheon, Thermo Fisher Scientific, Boston Scientific, and Biogen are not in Boston.
You can't be serious when you said Boston doesn't have large companies in their downtown area. Of course they do.
Prudential has been a long-standing employer there along with Liberty Mutual, State Street, and maybe you've heard of new startup called General Electric?
These companies and all the other law firms, insurance companies, banks, and government offices gives Boston's downtown area a pretty good choice of places to work and earn a good living.
I didn't stay in Boston for personal reasons but their downtown blows Phoenix's away easily.
You can't be serious when you said Boston doesn't have large companies in their downtown area. Of course they do.
Prudential has been a long-standing employer there along with Liberty Mutual, State Street, and maybe you've heard of new startup called General Electric?
These companies and all the other law firms, insurance companies, banks, and government offices gives Boston's downtown area a pretty good choice of places to work and earn a good living.
I didn't stay in Boston for personal reasons but their downtown blows Phoenix's away easily.
As I said before Boston has some of it's large companies downtown, I'm quite familiar with the area.
In total Boston has 4 of it's Fortune sized companies based downtown, I already named every company you just said includingGE, State Street, Liberty Mutual and even included American Tower which is also in the city. The other 8 in the metro are not in downtown Boston.
4 out of 12 is not the majority of Boston Metro's large Fortune sized corporations.
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That $2K will buy you all kinds of games on Stub Hub AND you will be close! JUST kidding! 
