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Old 04-22-2018, 04:12 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
6,704 posts, read 9,803,046 times
Reputation: 7876

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Every time education comes up in a thread, that poster prattles on about privatization. Public schools are constitutionally mandated. 95% of AZ students go to public schools. We have a problem and we need realistic solutions, not libertarian wet dreams and fantasies.
You bet we have a problem, and the problem is those parents in that 90 percentile range who expect the government to be their savior by educating their children free of charge, yet somehow expect the government to be efficient & effective in doing so. Sorry, but beggars can't be choosers as the old saying goes. Privatizing education is a realistic solution which you and others balk at. Since you admit we have a big problem, yet want to continue down the same old path of keeping the schools public, I suggest putting your money where your mouth is by opening up your wallet & donating generously to the cause ... and by that, I don't mean by just paying taxes. I say this to anybody who sits around & complains about how bad the schools are but does little or nothing to help make them better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
I'm no fan of a walk out either BUT what else are they to do? They've asked,begged,asked again and begged until blue in the face and yet nothing happens. Hell, they even win court cases that order funding to be returned and nothing happens.
It's become obvious the ONLY way to get the legislators full attention is to cause pain for the public which threatens their re-election. I think a good percentage of the public finally realize who really caused this walkout and other walkouts across the nation.
I know what you're saying, and I agree that teachers are underpaid. I think what's going to be an even bigger pain for the public in the long run is if we give in to the liberals by increasing education funding to the levels they want because that will mean raising taxes. One of the reasons Arizona continues to grow so much is our lower tax burden. I don't want to see AZ become like CA, IL, NY, or MA as far as taxes & cost of living. Besides, that would mean a greater financial hardship for many, especially if property taxes increase.
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:33 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,973 posts, read 24,128,046 times
Reputation: 15586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
You bet we have a problem, and the problem is those parents in that 90 percentile range who expect the government to be their savior by educating their children free of charge, yet somehow expect the government to be efficient & effective in doing so. Sorry, but beggars can't be choosers as the old saying goes. Privatizing education is a realistic solution which you and others balk at. Since you admit we have a big problem, yet want to continue down the same old path of keeping the schools public, I suggest putting your money where your mouth is by opening up your wallet & donating generously to the cause ... and by that, I don't mean by just paying taxes. I say this to anybody who sits around & complains about how bad the schools are but does little or nothing to help make them better.



I know what you're saying, and I agree that teachers are underpaid. I think what's going to be an even bigger pain for the public in the long run is if we give in to the liberals by increasing education funding to the levels they want because that will mean raising taxes. One of the reasons Arizona continues to grow so much is our lower tax burden. I don't want to see AZ become like CA, IL, NY, or MA as far as taxes & cost of living. Besides, that would mean a greater financial hardship for many, especially if property taxes increase.
Well, if funding could actually be directed/forced where it's promised to go like actual teacher/staff pay increases I don't think most people would argue about paying a bit more. The problem is and has been a misrepresentation of where all those funds they've gotten went and go...
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:26 PM
 
287 posts, read 154,644 times
Reputation: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
When I hear a teacher interviewed say he often has to choose between his diabetes meds and food for his family I say good for them to protest.

How do you support a family on $38,000 a year PLUS the cost of supplies they have to buy out of their pockets?
See, this is what hits the spot. How can you afford this? 38,000 is way below for our time now. Things aren't as cheap as they were 20 year ago. Yes, we understand we go into this not to be rich, but we should be able to a least buy a small house, not just rent. I'm not sure how well someone could buy a house on this salary today without living paycheck to paycheck. Unless the house is really small.
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Old 04-22-2018, 11:38 PM
 
9,093 posts, read 17,375,915 times
Reputation: 6922
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Well, if funding could actually be directed/forced where it's promised to go like actual teacher/staff pay increases I don't think most people would argue about paying a bit more. The problem is and has been a misrepresentation of where all those funds they've gotten went and go...
Look at the budgets. "They" haven't gotten funds, unless by "they" you mean the state.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Outside US
2,339 posts, read 1,054,454 times
Reputation: 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Yeah..... That will really improve education in this state and encourage educated people to move here.

Very well thought out and reasonable response.........
It's what's been happening in North Carolina for a long time. Nearby states actively recruited NC teachers (in the 90s).

AZ politcos reap what they sow.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:21 AM
 
9,241 posts, read 7,791,469 times
Reputation: 2217
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaparrito View Post
Lots of misinformation in this thread. The strike isn't just about teacher pay.
Why did the governor agree to a 20% raise ? It seems like that was the #1 pressing issue.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:29 AM
 
9,241 posts, read 7,791,469 times
Reputation: 2217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Yeah, you clearly aren't from here.

You talk of unions. This is AZ chief, really not in play here.

When looking at spend make sure you look at all factors.

The total spend figure cited includes both private, public and parent sources. It also includes post secondary education.

Many countries have passed the US in total spend per student, while many have always been ahead on percentage of GDP per student.

Looking at public spending the US has always lagged, typically being 10 points behind on primary + secondary and 30 points behind on post- secondary.

Finally, the US has a lot of access. Under 10% puff our population agreed 25-65 had not completed upper secondary education. The OECD average for 2016 ( most current year available) is 21.6%.

Keep that in mind when comparing results as well. We push more through the system where other counties drop those they do not show aptitude. Our less inclined are available too test and count in an average, other places limit this factor.

Think of it like a cross country team. Of you here to field 10 runners, a smaller school that only has 10 interested runners could average lower than a larger school where they have tryouts and cuts, even in the small school had the 3 fastest runners - the team result can bee pulled down by the kids who wouldn't be on the other roster.
We spend way too much for mediocre results.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:34 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
6,704 posts, read 9,803,046 times
Reputation: 7876
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
We definitely spend more on education than practically all other countries, and look at the results. Most states (including Arizona) spend more on public schools than anything else. It's all the more proof that spending all this tax money on education is not delivering the output everybody is expecting ... yet, liberals keep calling for more government spending & increasing taxes. Many parents won't make sacrifices & give up their frivolous spending habits to invest in their own kids' education ... they'd rather have the government raise & educate their offspring, and they'd rather use the schools as their own free daycare service.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-24-2018 at 04:18 AM.. Reason: Federal level politics is off topic
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:20 AM
 
Location: out standing in my field
1,062 posts, read 1,691,215 times
Reputation: 2629
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Why did the governor agree to a 20% raise ? It seems like that was the #1 pressing issue.
The leaflet I posted, which was for some reason removed while this thread was being "cleaned up", explained what's been done to school funding.

The governor's proposal is pie in the sky. A last ditch effort to avoid a teacher strike. He doesn't give teachers raises, the legislature does and he knows good and well they'd take his proposal and water it down to nothing by the time it hits his desk for a signature.
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Old 04-24-2018, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
2,940 posts, read 1,426,126 times
Reputation: 1925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Educator1982 View Post
See, this is what hits the spot. How can you afford this? 38,000 is way below for our time now. Things aren't as cheap as they were 20 year ago. Yes, we understand we go into this not to be rich, but we should be able to a least buy a small house, not just rent. I'm not sure how well someone could buy a house on this salary today without living paycheck to paycheck. Unless the house is really small.
I think a bigger issue is the whole economic system that's causing these tax fights.

We have a couple things going for us:
1) Affordability of housing - mainly driven by supply/demand of land/density and/or units per sq mile, various interest groups attempt to rig local municipalities to work in the land-owners favor (stopping new construction to let the market drive up housing prices) - also the demand for new construction is ridiculous (who in their right mind NEEDS 2500-3000 sq feet?) People in Europe do just fine a much smaller sq ft house. Why can't we?
2) Affordability of healthcare - mainly driven by for-profit institutions who rig the tax laws in their favor
3) Investors (the minority) are getting all the profits from everyday spending done by everyone else - driven by low capital gains taxation, constantly reducing taxes on wealthier people and not taxing investments more heavily based on wealth/assets
4) Low financial education - people in the US aren't really that knowledgeable about their own finances and therefore, spend liberally versus rather conservatively (the stats are pretty scary), not knowing how the stock market works, how 401k works, how federal taxes work, etc..
5) Banking system - a for-profit, shareholder driven system mainly capitalizing on people's own selfish desires to buy stuff they cannot afford but will give them a loan anyways and shackle them to debt

So add all those major factors up and we have a perfect storm of wanting to increase taxes to pay for teachers, but cannot find the money to increase taxes to tax without making our taxation system very very very progressive.

So if you haven't noticed, fundamentally, it's our consumer-driven, conspicuous consumption culture that drives up prices at the heart of it. We want more things, bigger homes, ever nicer cars, and will go deeply into debt for it rather than investing our hard earned money.
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