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Old 04-29-2018, 09:28 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,973 posts, read 24,145,899 times
Reputation: 15587

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaGirl2 View Post
Talking to a lot of neighbors and people at the Gym are all staying we should march to Capital & to each school district School Board demand they Fire Teachers !!!!
Now stop and use that NY brain for a minute and THINK about what you are promoting. You're in a place that has over 2k open jobs right now just begging for workers and y'all are chanting "fire them,fire them". What do you think the outcome will be?
Do you realize that the school year would END the day that is done? Do you think there's people ready,willing and able to step into the breach knowing how their new bosses feel about them and how they've treated their predecessors? Bosses that for the last 10 years have basically said "you don't like the pennies you're making then leave". This isn't NY (thank GOD) where people are clamoring to work in the schools for big pay.

Do you really think qualified teachers are going to rush to fill jobs that pay less than someone who works at the Amazon fulfillment center on a minutes notice?
Are YOU and all those other fools ready to step up and teach because that'd be about the only way classes would get filled.

Yeah, go ahead and fire all those teachers, I dare you. That'd be the best way to force unionization of AZ schools.

I don't see what your issue is, all they are asking for is to be returned to the funding levels that existed BEFORE the crash now that the economy is moving right along again and the powers that be have totally ignored them.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:29 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,973 posts, read 24,145,899 times
Reputation: 15587
Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaGirl2 View Post
All the non stop TV & Radio commercials by the Teachers Unions attacking the Gov. Talk about wasting money, but it's for the kids, NOT !! It's for Political Reasons and Teachers GREED !!!! Everyone's saying AZ will never see a School District Budget override or School prop passed by voters ever again, The Teachers & Unions did serious damage & most people lost respect for them and the teachers are look at as Greedy SOB's
Diane Douglas, is that you????

THERE IS NO TEACHERS UNION, damn, is it that hard for you to comprehend. Right to work state, NO UNION.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:49 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,973 posts, read 24,145,899 times
Reputation: 15587
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
The same could be said on multiple fronts. Tough sh_t if you smoked, didn't eat healthy, didn't work out and you got sick, didn't put on sun screen and got cancer, etc etc. Too bad that you didn't save more and now you struggle as a retiree. Or maybe they should have studied more or worked harder and smarter because retirees extract (on average) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they put in. Tough if you didn't save for a rainy day and now you want unemployment. I could go on for an hour longer. My point is if you want to be a purist and the litmus test is full fledged personal responsibility, I bet I could find a half dozen that you have taken advantage of in your lifetime. We all have.

Look at it this way. You can point to our less than ideal test score results and assume that the USA is inept with public K-12. If that is the case, why is it that we are 5% of the worlds population and generate and hold 20-25% (depending which survey) of the wealth? Maybe a subset of people actually took advantage of their opportunity with their public education. I'm one of those kids who had procreating parents (6 kids) and we didn't have a pot to p_ss in. I rallied while my brothers didn't. Cut, paste, repeat with my wife except she had 8, under achieving siblings. We broke the cycle and our kids are doing as well (pending doctor son and current Dentist daughter). They did this with an average test score public HS. Yet the school was well funded so they could take advantage of the quality school. So while 20% didn't pass their standardized tests and another 60% barely understood the basic material, a solid 20% of the kids kicked butt. The "averages" were dismal. That didn't mean the schools didn't do their jobs. They did. What's the saying; you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Some people decided they didn't care (bad parenting) and they have mentally unplugged. So just because a private school have better averages doesn't mean they are better. They simply have kids who attend who parent better. Anybody who has studied this topic understands what I just typed.

Using your approach (parents pay), my broke parents would have had no option but to put us in crappy school. Do you think I would have earned a degree as an electrical engineer and broke the poverty cycle? My theory is the 80:20 rule. 20% pay for the other 80%. So forget the averages, if we adopt your approach and slash school budgets for procreating broke people, you pretty much guarantee no outliers are going to make it out. My point is that "I got mine" in K-12 on someone else's back. Think free lunches, subsidized housing and WELL FUNDED schools, subsidized colleges, etc.

I'm all for personal responsibility. If you and I had the magic wand, we could fix all kinds of problems. A wand would be needed because politics are always present. But your personal hot button on school taxes isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. However flawed it is (and the school system IS flawed), we still have the bulk of the world wealth. I propose a lot of it is because we didn't use your approach. So while I see obvious issues, your solution (only the parents pay) is kind of.. well... Not so smart.

Oh.. Disclaimer: to date, I have never voted for a single Democrat. So people can quit with the "liberal" label. Close to 50% of conservatives plug their noses and vote for more school funding. It's ain't perfect. The last thing that makes sense is to demotivate teachers. Even if they eventually got their way and get a raise, the damage has been done.

I hate waste and taxes just as much as the next guy. I've had to write out some massive federal taxes in some good years plus state, local, sales tax, etc etc. There is a TON of waste every single topic. I'm less upset with K-12 waste. So until I get the magic wand, I am in favor of making sure AZ teachers are paid fairly. I don't have any kids in the system and I am paying taxes in two homes. IMHO, educational classes need to be taught on how to parent. If people actually learned how to do a good job, that would have a lot of impact on test scores. a.k.a. being more involved.
Well said! To add to this is something I've been a proponent of for all the years my son was in the school system. The idea is that school districts should take one low enrollment or empty school in each district or, use one centralized school that feeds from a few districts and turn it into a technical school/trade school. There are kids who will never do well in a standard school setting for whatever reason so providing a fast track to an actual paying job is their best option.

Instead of the kids getting bored and causing trouble in class with the "I'm never going to use this stuff" or "I don't care, this stuff has nothing to do with what I want and I'm never going to college" attitudes they can go learn something real and tangible on a daily basis that they know will get them decent money right out of school. We could have a bunch of 17-18 year olds geared up and ready to work on day one.

This can further be accomplished by partnering with local corporations/companies who can provide guidance of what they need in the real world and can change right along with the working worlds needs.

There are manual jobs that pay well and that will almost always need to be filled by humans, at least until a fully functional AI robot that can replace humans is invented and accepted by humanity.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
33,976 posts, read 43,680,730 times
Reputation: 22982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Well said! To add to this is something I've been a proponent of for all the years my son was in the school system. The idea is that school districts should take one low enrollment or empty school in each district or, use one centralized school that feeds from a few districts and turn it into a technical school/trade school. There are kids who will never do well in a standard school setting for whatever reason so providing a fast track to an actual paying job is their best option.

Instead of the kids getting bored and causing trouble in class with the "I'm never going to use this stuff" or "I don't care, this stuff has nothing to do with what I want and I'm never going to college" attitudes they can go learn something real and tangible on a daily basis that they know will get them decent money right out of school. We could have a bunch of 17-18 year olds geared up and ready to work on day one.

This can further be accomplished by partnering with local corporations/companies who can provide guidance of what they need in the real world and can change right along with the working worlds needs.

There are manual jobs that pay well and that will almost always need to be filled by humans, at least until a fully functional AI robot that can replace humans is invented and accepted by humanity.
We have this (trade oriented high school). It's called West Mech. Kids are not excused from a basic education in math, science, history etc, which they take at their home schools. But part of the day they are bused to the West-Mec campus for CTE courses.


Home - West-MEC

Arguably, it is not in depth enough to qualify someone right out the door. But neither is a college prep curriculum. One has to go on. If there is one part of education system here that IS really good it is our community college network which offers many paths to trade education and careers at relatively reasonable cost.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:47 AM
 
33 posts, read 12,317 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Now stop and use that NY brain for a minute and THINK about what you are promoting. You're in a place that has over 2k open jobs right now just begging for workers and y'all are chanting "fire them,fire them". What do you think the outcome will be?
Do you realize that the school year would END the day that is done? Do you think there's people ready,willing and able to step into the breach knowing how their new bosses feel about them and how they've treated their predecessors? Bosses that for the last 10 years have basically said "you don't like the pennies you're making then leave". This isn't NY (thank GOD) where people are clamoring to work in the schools for big pay.

Do you really think qualified teachers are going to rush to fill jobs that pay less than someone who works at the Amazon fulfillment center on a minutes notice?
Are YOU and all those other fools ready to step up and teach because that'd be about the only way classes would get filled.

Yeah, go ahead and fire all those teachers, I dare you. That'd be the best way to force unionization of AZ schools.

I don't see what your issue is, all they are asking for is to be returned to the funding levels that existed BEFORE the crash now that the economy is moving right along again and the powers that be have totally ignored them.


Just saw a couple at Fry's wearing t-Shirts that said FIRE ! The Greedy SOP's and F Ed For Red Demands
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:51 AM
 
17,824 posts, read 38,694,623 times
Reputation: 10481
Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaGirl2 View Post
Most of the schools in metro Phoenix are nearly new to brand new, their all have lighted football fields and state of art of tracks lol The word is, 3 days of no show is considered a volunteer quit and the head of AZ education & AZ Attorney General are threating to take their teaching certification away, It's all about Teachers & Unions Greed !! Teacher Unions demands are never ending. I just a some high school kids repeating "it's about the kids" and laughing Lots of Subs in AZ looking for full time teaching jobs


You have not lived here long, Tulsagirl, if you think that most of the schools in the Phoenix area are nearly new to brand new. They most certainly are not.


And there's no law or hard and fast rule about "three days no call no show"... that concept doesn't apply here.


It's not about "greed". It's about public education in this state being underfunded for a VERY long time. Not just salaries. And. it's about monies that voters directed to be put toward K-12 education getting detoured into other areas.


And it certainly isn't about "unions". While the AFT, an AFL-CIO affiliate, exists in Arizona, and the Arizona Education Association, a "professional association" has been around for decades, there's no collective bargaining for teachers here, and unions really are not part of the issue here.
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:16 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,973 posts, read 24,145,899 times
Reputation: 15587
Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaGirl2 View Post
Just saw a couple at Fry's wearing t-Shirts that said FIRE ! The Greedy SOP's and F Ed For Red Demands
Sure you did. I just love how people bring where they ran away from with them to the new place and then try to apply it here.

But,but, but this is how we did it back there so it MUST be fact here...
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
34,657 posts, read 18,850,061 times
Reputation: 12414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
You have to understand that many retirees who live strictly on Social Security (or perhaps small pensions or investment income) are often more limited on what they can afford. This is why any increase in taxes will hurt them financially. Besides, many of them worked hard, contributed to society, paid their taxes, raised families, and even served their country ... that's hardly selfish! A lot of them also desire to live among their own age group and don't want to have to contend with obnoxious kids. This is why age restricted communities are so popular. They deserve a break!

For the record, I'm against vouchers because all they amount to is government money diverted to private schools. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have it wrong on this whole education funding issue. In the end, the best way to go is privatization, and keep the government out of it! I have cited time and time again how private schools are far superior to practically anything in the private sector. For one thing, children who attend private school are more likely to be college graduates and have successful careers. If we're going to keep the education system public, then I suggest those with kids in school pay the brunt of the taxes, and leave everybody else alone. Basically, you pay for what you use. That would be the fair thing to do.
The problem I have vouchers is the execution. It is essentially rich welfare that quite frankly they don't need. It don't go to families that would actually truly benefit from it. I hope you vote against Prop 305 which looks to expand the existing state school voucher system then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaGirl2 View Post
All the non stop TV & Radio commercials by the Teachers Unions attacking the Gov. Talk about wasting money, but it's for the kids, NOT !! It's for Political Reasons and Teachers GREED !!!! Everyone's saying AZ will never see a School District Budget override or School prop passed by voters ever again, The Teachers & Unions did serious damage & most people lost respect for them and the teachers are look at as Greedy SOB's
There is no teacher union. Arizona Educators United and Arizona Education Association as well as smaller district level associations are just that. They aren't unions, they are advocacy groups pure and simple. Since Arizona is right to work and open shop, these associations have little power and how the legislature walked out Thursday proves that.

Also are the teachers aren't being greedy. You are obtuse if you think tgat. Why, because as I've said, teachers aren't doing it for the raise to catch them up pay rate wise, they are doing it for school funding and support staff as well. If they were greedy, why would they fight the deal if they got 20% raises? You haven't answered that...
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Old 04-29-2018, 03:28 PM
 
2,305 posts, read 4,718,240 times
Reputation: 4203
Just for clarification from the AEA's website AEA - Who We Are :

"AEA is a professional association and a labor union, advocating on behalf of students, staff, and teachers in Arizona."

It is a union. Not as powerful as they'd like to be, but a labor union nonetheless.
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:39 PM
 
17,824 posts, read 38,694,623 times
Reputation: 10481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Madolf View Post
Just for clarification from the AEA's website AEA - Who We Are :

"AEA is a professional association and a labor union, advocating on behalf of students, staff, and teachers in Arizona."

It is a union. Not as powerful as they'd like to be, but a labor union nonetheless.



They can "advocate" all they want, and may be able to represent individual employees in certain matters, but they don't have any bargaining authority, so their power is in fact extremely limited. They had more influence back in the 60s and 70s than they do now.
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