Golf course communities -- a concern to consider. (Phoenix, Tucson: 2013, apartment)

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by backtochitown

Another thing I'd like to point out before joining a country club...and that is the 'out' clause...a lot of private clubs will not let you out...there are waiting lists where you are expected to still pay dues, etc. Be wary and read ALL!

Dang, reminds me of the Hell's Angels or any other gangs out there. Very hard to leave. Some gangs only let you leave in a body bag. Who knew country clubs were so ruthless.

[backtochitown]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

Dang, reminds me of the Hell's Angels or any other gangs out there. Very hard to leave. Some gangs only let you leave in a body bag. Who knew country clubs were so ruthless.

You can joke but I've had a lot of people I know just think they can sell their home and leave and golf membership goes away...a lot of memberships don't...payments into perpetuity...and then they go into collection...

[Casey73]

Originally Posted by Burning Madolf

NOT THE PREBLE'S MEADOW JUMPING MOUSE! Oh the humanity!

LOL

[gvgranny]

Green Valley, AZ, between Tucson and the Mexico border, is an over-55 community with a unique recreation program (Green Valley Recreation) and several golf-courses. After Bush's recession, 3 courses closed. Eventually, two had new owners, and one was donated to the county. (Green Valley is unincorporated and has no city government.) It has been made into an Open Space Park, which opened last month. This community is heavy on volunteerism, and there's already a Friends of the Park Group; another group worked on getting the park started. It took several years, but it's a wonderful asset to our community. It can be done, but it takes real commitment from many people. (I don't live on that golf course, so I'm not sure if there was any objection from home-owners there to this new park. The course was public, and not owned by the community. Since there were no buyers for the course waiting in the wings, I'm thinking this was a pretty good alternative to some developer building a thousand more homes.)

https://www.kgun9.com/news/local-new...ets-a-new-name

[City Guy997S]

Originally Posted by backtochitown

Another thing I'd like to point out before joining a country club...and that is the 'out' clause...a lot of private clubs will not let you out...there are waiting lists where you are expected to still pay dues, etc. Be wary and read ALL!

Old thread but I'll add that some clubs are tied to real estate, some are not.

In the real estate cases if the club dues are too expensive the real estate gets discounted heavily. In Boca Raton, FL there is a club called Boca West, beautiful with 5 courses/clubhouse etc. The social membership is mandatory for about 70K then 10K a year for life. You can buy a 2/2 condo there for $100. Nothing wrong with it, they just want to dump it to get out of paying the dues.
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-42134?view=qv

In non-real state situations, the club may force you onto a waiting list. So they have to sell 2-3 new memberships before an existing member who wishes to leave gets to sell his membership. Now imagine being 30 spots back on that list! They would need to sell 60-90 new memberships before they give you the chance to sell yours! .........and you are on the hook for the dues until that sale happens. If you stop paying then you lose your equity and don't get any portion of the membership money back (the 50-100K you put up originally).

Either way it is bad math for someone that wants to play 10-20 times a year.......

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I golf once a year. But I will be buying my next house on a course for one reason: beauty. And probably in a 55+ location. Mike, can you share your development name?

I'm in Trilogy at Vistancia. Development of Vistancia is complete; the last handful of homes will be sold and closed by Fall at which time the developer, Shea, will turn the HOA over to the community and they will bid us goodbye. As part of Shea's departure there is the issue of the golf course and eatery (V's Taproom). Homeowners will soon vote on whether our HOA should buy the golf course and eatery from Shea or let Shay sell it to another entity. As you might imagine there are many impassioned postings on our in-house bulletin board with both yea or nay points of view. Some believe we must buy these assets to assure the golf course is kept in top shape so that homeowner property values are maintained and some believe we have zero business trying to operate the assets. I will keep the list posted as things proceed.

[Tall Traveler]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

I live in a gated 55+ community. Great landscaping, lovely place, with many amenities, one of which is a golf course with clubhouse and eatery.

Golf is in a decline. Adidas' golf revenue fell 28% last year despite a booming economy.

Direct excerpts from article: "The number of young people, aged 18 to 30, playing the game has sagged nearly 35 percent over the last decade. ... That drop-off has hit America's greens and links hard. More golf courses closed than opened in 2013 for the eighth straight year, according to the National Golf Foundation. And the number of course closures has sped up, averaging 137 closings every year since 2011, data from golf-industry researcher Pellucid show."

For some time now the developer of our community has been shopping around for a buyer to take our golf course, club house and restaurant but no buyers are interested. Now they want to sell it to our HOA but no one knows what the economic impact of that will be to homeowners, nor do we know what will happen if the HOA members (homeowners) decline to buy the "assets."

In a prior life I lived in COLO SPGS where several courses went bankrupt and closed. In one case a developer (naturally) wants to get his hands on the land and build homes. Home buyers who paid a premium for a "golf course lot" are incandescent with rage at such a screwing over. No one here in my current 'hood has any idea if we can let it revert to open space desert or a wash or whatever. There are legal issues for most any course of action. Well kiddies, isn't retirement fun.

For potential homebuyers in this area (and indeed nationwide) this is a cautionary tale to take a hard look at any community where a golf course is part of the allure. It may be best to avoid such places and live in a non-golf community. To each their own. YMMV.

We lived in a golf course community for a dozen years and I think you're right, the trend is down for them. The golf course where we lived went bankrupt and a bit in disarray for a few years until a new buyer bought it and it got better.

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

I'm in Trilogy at Vistancia. Development of Vistancia is complete; the last handful of homes will be sold and closed by Fall at which time the developer, Shea, will turn the HOA over to the community and they will bid us goodbye. As part of Shea's departure there is the issue of the golf course and eatery (V's Taproom). Homeowners will soon vote on whether our HOA should buy the golf course and eatery from Shea or let Shay sell it to another entity. As you might imagine there are many impassioned postings on our in-house bulletin board with both yea or nay points of view. Some believe we must buy these assets to assure the golf course is kept in top shape so that homeowner property values are maintained and some believe we have zero business trying to operate the assets. I will keep the list posted as things proceed.

That's a tough one. Have homeowners been paying for all the upkeep all along.

[thinkalot]

Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012

You know, it would have been nice if you, "thinkalot," had cited ONE source for your info -- but you didn't. Clearly you got the info from SOMEWHERE, given all the stats, but somehow you decided it wasn't worth actually giving us your sources? Why on earth would you do that?

You could very well be correct -- but again, why on earth didn't you give any citations? (If you were my student, you would have flunked for providing absolutely no sources!)

The OP may have used 4-1/2-year-old story, but that doesn't seem outrageous to me at all (I mean, this is about golf courses and the appeal of golf -- are you saying it's really changed DRAMATICALLY in the past 4-1/2 years?), ESPECIALLY given that you didn't post ANY sources at all.

I don't know that I would ever buy in a golf course community (since I have zero interest in playing myself, although my SO plays sometimes), so I thought the OP provided good information that I had not thought about before. It would be nice to have a "conversation" about this with some legitimate sources, you know?

I stated in my post that all numbers come from the National Golf Foundation.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by Burning Madolf

That's a tough one. Have homeowners been paying for all the upkeep all along.

No, the HOA and golf assets have been separate entities with separate accounting. The assets are alleged to be profitable.

If homeowners vote to buy the assets then each homeowner will be assessed $39/mo for 36 months to pay the mortgage of $4M at 6% interests for 3 years. Sale price is to be $4M which I think is too high. There's all sorts of statements posted by numerous homeowners to the point I've no idea if that's a fair price and/or if remarks are true that the course needs $1M to replace the entire 18-year-old irrigation system and/or the alleged need for another $1M to rebuild all the sand traps. I've no idea where truth lies. There are so many reams of studies and reports that finding specific data would take me all day and still may not find the truth. I suspect outside firms who buy golf courses have been in the play the course and may find the $4M price tag too high, or maybe not. It will be interesting to see what the assets sell for in the open market if the homeowners vote down the proposed purchase.