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I HATE that taxes are paid for the stadium. Stadiums should sink or swim on their own. Personally, I go to one pro game every 3 years and watch a pro sports game on TV a couple of times a year; tops. The stadium was opened in 2006. Soon, Phoenix was in a massive recession. So while other citizens in Minneapolis worried about not getting a raise, a lot of people in Phoenix worried about surviving. The whole area came to a screeching halt. It was an absolute TERRIBLE time to open up a billion-dollar venture.
Glendale wasn't financially responsible. We agree. And I suspect it would have done better in the East Valley so we also agree. What I'm saying is they could not have picked a worse time. And the location has a lot less to do with the massive blow to their concept. Rather the economy was horrible and some bad seasons (and publicity) with the Coyotes. You cannot take a single successful start season of the Knights and extrapolate that they are doing well because of the location. The team was in the Stanley Cup.
Westgate assumed growth around the area and a semi-healthy economy. It's taken 5+ years after the great recession to end for many people in PHX in order to get their legs back. My point is IF the economy cruised along as they modeled, their bet would have looked a lot better on paper. So the #1 reason for the failure was the recession, not the location. If you picked the location in 2006, I predict they still would have lost their arse; just less $$. As always, SOMEONE is going to make money on the Westgate project. Like happens all too often, not always the 1st guy. And in this case, the people who live in Glendale will be paying for a lot of it.
All right, so we agree on the financial aspect of it: taxes should never be used to pay for pro sports or their venues. It makes no sense why the leagues and/or teams themselves (particularly the owners) can't fund these elaborate projects with their own money ... and based on how much their net worth is, they can certainly afford it. Have we learned from this? Obviously not.
In 2006, the economy was still fairly good, except we were in a bubble that many people didn't realize had formed. The actual downturn didn't happen until 2 years later, but during that time there were too many people who blamed practically everything on the recession, and it seems that you're one of them (even now). The recession was not the #1 reason why Westgate failed. If it was, then it would make sense to say that other venues like Chase Field and US Airways Center should have faced foreclosure, and the Suns & DBacks would have filed for bankruptcy like the Coyotes did.
So let's forget about that awful economic period. It's 2020 now, and we've been in a robust economy for a while. Westgate is still subsidized by the city of Glendale and rental car taxes. There has been SOME development around there, but it's rather sporadic. Oh, and I won't even elaborate on the very limited transportation options, as well as all the OPEN parking lots (no garage parking). That's just fantastic for people who drive to early season NFL games or concerts during the summer months.
Often, Google Maps can be three years old. I don't mean to bust your chops but looking at Google maps to make your argument is like me saying I went on vacation to Japan a couple of hours ago. Because I was on Google maps and it was a lovely trip.
The area has built up a lot mainly because the economy is extremely healthy.
Google Maps is very much up to date, depending of course on the timeframe selected on the website. Let's take a look at a street view of the area near 91st & Glendale Avenues. Adjust the date to 2008 or any other year, and it all looks the same: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5375...7i16384!8i8192
So I have no idea what you mean by "the area has built up a lot". In reality, it has developed very little, which is pretty pathetic for the strong economic period we're currently in. Every one of these vacant lots and cotton fields should have been replaced with condos, lofts, office buildings, or anything else noteworthy if Westgate was truly in a worthwhile location. You might remember a lot of this was planned initially, which never came to fruition.
I go out there with some frequency mainly for yotes and cards games, the changes have been very noticeable in the last 5-10 years. New hotels, Dave and Busters is there now, Top Golf directly across the 101, the massive Desert Diamond Casino is nearly completely directly to the north. Hell, 10 years ago the Tanger Outlets weren't even there.
With Parsons at the helm for the last year they've added quite a few new amenities as well, ax throwing, escape room, piano bar and I can't remember when the comedy club opened.
OK, you've included a small handful of recent developments located across from the undeveloped lots and cotton fields. Woo hoo! But then again, you're a person who gets all excited about new 5 or 10 story buildings downtown.
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Originally Posted by wase4711
the endless hate for anything in the west valley, by many members here is pretty amusing, since many of them haven't been in the west valley in ages, and don't realize or want to admit to the explosive growth in the west valley, and how much better it is that it was even 5 years ago.
that's ok, makes it a little less crowded for those of us who know what's actually going on out here..
So far, I have not seen any hateful remarks about the west Valley on this thread. The only contempt here is for Westgate and the area surrounding it (for obvious reasons). I'm the first one to admit that there are some very nice areas in the west Valley ... especially on the NW side (Arrowhead, the Sun Cities, and parts of Peoria).
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Originally Posted by pbenjamin
I disagree. The average person a couple of states away from here doesn't know Phoenix from Tucson from Yuma, unless they have some sort of connection here. Television coverage doesn't help much either. I have seen several nationally broadcast Cardinals or Diamondbacks games where they show pictures of the Grand Canyon when they cut to commercial.
A lot of that goes back to what I said about Phoenix's lack of identity. That's another difference: a broadcast from L.A. would show their skyline, Hollywood sign, or some other city attraction. In Vegas, aerial views of the Strip are shown. When people think of Arizona, the state's largest city (and one of the largest in the nation) rarely comes to mind. The Grand Canyon is a wonderful attraction, but where are the street views or skyline shots of downtown Phoenix?
OK, you've included a small handful of recent developments located across from the undeveloped lots and cotton fields. Woo hoo! But then again, you're a person who gets all excited about new 5 or 10 story buildings downtown.
So far, I have not seen any hateful remarks about the west Valley on this thread. The only contempt here is for Westgate and the area surrounding it (for obvious reasons). I'm the first one to admit that there are some very nice areas in the west Valley ... especially on the NW side (Arrowhead, the Sun Cities, and parts of Peoria).
A lot of that goes back to what I said about Phoenix's lack of identity. That's another difference: a broadcast from L.A. would show their skyline, Hollywood sign, or some other city attraction. In Vegas, aerial views of the Strip are shown. When people think of Arizona, the state's largest city (and one of the largest in the nation) rarely comes to mind. The Grand Canyon is a wonderful attraction, but where are the street views or skyline shots of downtown Phoenix?
They seem to be better about showing local spots during asu broadcasts. They Usually include mill ave and the bridges lit up at night. I can’t recall ever really seeing urban Phoenix shots during broadcasts. It’s usually a random desert/mountain view.
The recession was not the #1 reason why Westgate failed. If it was, then it would make sense to say that other venues like Chase Field and US Airways Center should have faced foreclosure, and the Suns & DBacks would have filed for bankruptcy like the Coyotes did.
Huh?? In your example, two of the teams have established businesses avoiding massive start-up costs and the teams were established. You realize it takes time to establish businesses. Right? The whole Westgate area cannot survive on hockey games and football games. They counted on growth in the area. They watched fast growth in and around the area and it came to a screeching halt. Now, even with your often quoted smoking gun showing cotton fields on the other side of the street, a lot more infrastructure is in place. Of course, they counted on the planned outlet mall to happen. They planned on all kinds of walkable multi-dwelling housing that you don't know about because you visited by way of Google Maps. All of a sudden, more people are showing up outside of hockey for synergistic reasons.
The bottom line is the area went deeper in debt than they ever predicted exclusively because of the Great Recession. I'm not talking about the year 2006 and 2007. I'm very sure they expected to bleed those years in the form of reserves. I'm discussing a time from 2008-2011 that was pure Hell for PHX area as a whole. Then I am talking about several years later that they bled because the area didn't have a lot of disposable funds. Yea, after the recession officially ended. By the way, a recession ends when the GDP rises. Well, it went into the sh_it-hole. So while the recession ended in 2011, the economy was decimated for a couple of years longer. You have a short memory.
Mind you, I bought here in 2011. When I was buying furniture, appliances, and lighting and when I asked the retailers how they were doing, a theme was that the foreclosure buyers were keeping them on life support. It sure the Hell wasn't the locals that had their tails between their legs. People were not wanting to spend $300 on a night out on a new team that played ICE HOCKEY in a desert. After the recession ended, housing and commercial developers were busy licking their wounds and weren't building homes around Westgate and barely anywhere around the metro. The epicenter for foreclosure crises"start-up" homeowners. The ones that assumed bet on a continued economy or a normal recession. So towns like Surprise that went from 30,000 in 2005 to 122,000 5 years later or 2015 were HAMMERED. Westgate planned on that population to support them. They were busy surviving and not visiting a hockey team or night out at Westgate. It took many more years to heal.
Plus, Downtown didn't need yet ANOTHER stadium to try and fill for Monster Truck rally. Stadiums cannot make it off of the sports venues alone. The reality is You CAN make a single stadium for baseball and football. Heck, you can even combine say, ASU with the Cardinals (as formerly proven by the Metrodome in MN: past home of the Gophers, Twins, and Vikings. Now they EACH have a publically-funded stadium). But the owners want their own subsidized stadiums so that their team value skyrockets when some stupid city/state caves in and builds yet another.
It's one reason why BFE stadiums where the growth is happening exists. They didn't ask your opinion for a reason. Go study Foxborough and the NEW ENGLAND Patriots and explain why they aren't a failing stadium located over 45 miles away from Boston in a town population of 16,000. Study this Foxborough Google map https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fo...!4d-71.2478251 and try and find density nearby. Needless to say, the team and stadium are doing o.k.
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Originally Posted by Valley Native
So I have no idea what you mean by "the area has built up a lot". In reality, it has developed very little, which is pretty pathetic for the strong economic period we're currently in. Every one of these vacant lots and cotton fields should have been replaced with condos, lofts, office buildings, or anything else noteworthy if Westgate was truly in a worthwhile location. You might remember a lot of this was planned initially, which never came to fruition.
Go drive over there and go tell me and others that new businesses and homes aren't popping up. I'm not going to bother clicking on your links. I have boots on the ground. When I visit Westgate, often I have to drive around to find a spot to park. Not so in 2012-2013.
Go re-read my posts to you. We are going around and around. Man, You should be a business consultant. 1st thing 1st: change the name to the Phoenix Coyotes and Westgate will expand!
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 01-03-2020 at 06:09 AM..
So far, I have not seen any hateful remarks about the west Valley on this thread. The only contempt here is for Westgate and the area surrounding it (for obvious reasons). I'm the first one to admit that there are some very nice areas in the west Valley ... especially on the NW side (Arrowhead, the Sun Cities, and parts of Peoria).
How would you know? It seems your car hasn't driven to this side of town for a decade totaling around 35 minutes of drive-time without traffic. Did you find those nice developments on Google Maps or was it from the drive out in 2009? In all seriousness, my guess is wase4711 hears your attitude coming across. I do. If you don't go to the games and have no interest to go to the West side of town why the multi-paragraph rant? It's why the 2nd and third poster in this thread didn't engage.
Lastly, Sun City and Sun City West aren't exactly nice to my eyeballs. YMMV. Sun City Grand surely is nice.
They seem to be better about showing local spots during asu broadcasts. They Usually include mill ave and the bridges lit up at night. I can’t recall ever really seeing urban Phoenix shots during broadcasts. It’s usually a random desert/mountain view.
They almost always do aerial shots of Downtown and Camelback Mountain. But I agree with the earlier sentiment that the teams are state teams and we live in a unique place so they should show it.
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