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Old 05-22-2021, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Willo Historic District, Phoenix, AZ
3,106 posts, read 4,989,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Which high school?
Hence the popularity of Sunnyslope.
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Old 05-22-2021, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
26,098 posts, read 10,420,726 times
Reputation: 8671
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin View Post
Hence the popularity of Sunnyslope.
Yeah, Sunnyslope is in Glendale Union, which is a better district than Phoenix Union
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Old 05-22-2021, 06:37 PM
 
500 posts, read 250,255 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Yeah, Sunnyslope is in Glendale Union, which is a better district than Phoenix Union
Agreed, Glendale beats Phoenix. There is simply a cancer at Glendale. Phoenix's problems run much deeper. I have seen some positives out of Sunnyslope, but that wouldn't warrant me working there, living there, or sending kids there.
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Old 05-23-2021, 07:47 AM
 
520 posts, read 406,331 times
Reputation: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sno0909 View Post
We homeschool, but if we didn't our kids would be in private school. Come hell or high water I'd find a way to afford it. But, contrary to your point, most people cannot afford this option. I would say a charter school would be a good second choice. They couldn't pay me to send my kids to public school anymore.
THIS. Which is why our kids go to private. And if anything this pandemic solidified our choice. Public schools were an absolute mess.
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Old 05-23-2021, 10:38 AM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
6,871 posts, read 10,042,449 times
Reputation: 8109
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
I can think of a lot more waste than your $2k a year in school property taxes that you hate. Like the Federal taxes collected for a wasteful military (more $’s spent in the USA than the next several countries spending combined). Or my over priced bloated medical insurance which subsidizes a system where many don’t pay. Or a social security system that losses money for people pulling out 20 times more than they put in. Or businesses getting bailed out with PPE (many which profited). Where was your outrage? We are not going to change those mismanaged decisions either. You decide to hone in on K-12. Fine. But there is ZERO chance of that changing.
You don't think I'm outraged at our government wasting money on all the things you mentioned? That would be completely false. I've spoken out on many items which involve government waste & incompetence: everything from ADOT on a local level to our involvement in foreign conflicts on a national level. The main reason I focus so much on paying for schools is all the other government waste doesn't force me to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket every year like the public school system does. You may think that's paltry, but I should be able to do what I want with my own money ... specifically for things that benefit ME. It's the principle of the matter. Even though I decided to pass on having kids, I'm still paying for everybody else's reproductive choices, and public schools serve no purpose to me whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
Re: “night and day” differences. Really? What metric can you point to? For YOU (not the kids sitting next to you), did your school teach math or science or ______ better? Because you said it was “night and day”! You have to be able to point to an objective measurement. I heard it from my neighbor back when he pulled his kids out of the school our kids went to. He bashed the publics. I would be delighted to compare their two kids journey with ours on any single metric. And the mom home schooled 8 years prior too because of this terrible influence. Whatever! They have three, out of wedlock Grandkids with a couple different moms. They blew $16k per year between the two of them and I would ask for my money back. They know they were lapped. I digress... But BOY were they convinced they had to pull them from the public school system. Lol
Private schools tend to put greater focus on preparing students for life in the real world. They put greater emphasis on respect for one another, and many even require require uniforms to be worn, which puts every student on the same level & reduces peer pressure. The fact that classroom sizes are smaller also benefits kids, as they receive better one on one learning.

All in all, the main benefit of switching to a privatized system (which I admit will never happen) is: the taxpayers are saved a tremendous amount of money. Frankly, I'm glad your neighbor spent all that money on private school. More than likely, their kids would have headed down the same path regardless of what kind of education they received. There have been intelligent, successful people who came from the public system, and there have failures who came from the private system. Bottom line is: more failures are still passed through the public system, and I'd much rather see parents pay for their own children's education (and everything else) out of their own wallets, regardless of how they turn out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
Re: GPA and not being very important in your eyes. A GPA often (not always) means a lot more than just brainpower and mastering skills. It implies discipline, hard work, grit, a care factor, follow though, competitiveness etc. I am sad that I had to explain this last point. And in some degrees, it’s really important. Like engineering, research and medicine. What sort of GPA’s do you think the guys and gals at companies like Google received? For the cancer researchers of the world who had revolutionary success, do you think they had a B- GPA?
The points I bolded above are precisely what private schools focus on compared to even the best publics. Of course GPA is important to successfully master the subjects while in school, and it's a proud accomplishment to graduate with honors. In the real world, however, it mostly means that a person completed the curriculum requirements. I work in the financial sector, so I can only relate to my own experience. When I screened candidates, I looked for experience, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, long term goals, etc. Somebody who listed a high GPA and mastering tests as his top accomplishments would get a smile and an "atta boy", but little else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
Back to the thread. While I don’t have kids in K-12 PHX area schools and I pay generously in my MN property taxes, you will never hear me complain about paying more taxes for (actually) better teachers and schools here. The system isn’t perfect. But I appreciate having a well funded program where families can extract the very best for their kids. And I know there is waste in any topic when you spend someone else’s money. The most amount of waste is when students don’t try their hardest. But hey, we need house cleaners and garbage haulers too. That’s what happens when you waste our tax dollars! Lol
As a native Arizonan, it hurts me to constantly hear reports about how we're low in educational standards compared to other states. At the same time, I cringe when I keep hearing that more funding is needed. We can't keep throwing money at the problem because the beast only grows larger, and the standards don't improve. Again, this is why I favor private schools because practically any time the government is involved, there is going to be an excessive amount of waste & incompetence.
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Old 05-23-2021, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
26,098 posts, read 10,420,726 times
Reputation: 8671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
You don't think I'm outraged at our government wasting money on all the things you mentioned? That would be completely false. I've spoken out on many items which involve government waste & incompetence: everything from ADOT on a local level to our involvement in foreign conflicts on a national level. The main reason I focus so much on paying for schools is all the other government waste doesn't force me to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket every year like the public school system does. You may think that's paltry, but I should be able to do what I want with my own money ... specifically for things that benefit ME. It's the principle of the matter. Even though I decided to pass on having kids, I'm still paying for everybody else's reproductive choices, and public schools serve no purpose to me whatsoever.



Private schools tend to put greater focus on preparing students for life in the real world. They put greater emphasis on respect for one another, and many even require require uniforms to be worn, which puts every student on the same level & reduces peer pressure. The fact that classroom sizes are smaller also benefits kids, as they receive better one on one learning.

All in all, the main benefit of switching to a privatized system (which I admit will never happen) is: the taxpayers are saved a tremendous amount of money. Frankly, I'm glad your neighbor spent all that money on private school. More than likely, their kids would have headed down the same path regardless of what kind of education they received. There have been intelligent, successful people who came from the public system, and there have failures who came from the private system. Bottom line is: more failures are still passed through the public system, and I'd much rather see parents pay for their own children's education (and everything else) out of their own wallets, regardless of how they turn out.



The points I bolded above are precisely what private schools focus on compared to even the best publics. Of course GPA is important to successfully master the subjects while in school, and it's a proud accomplishment to graduate with honors. In the real world, however, it mostly means that a person completed the curriculum requirements. I work in the financial sector, so I can only relate to my own experience. When I screened candidates, I looked for experience, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, long term goals, etc. Somebody who listed a high GPA and mastering tests as his top accomplishments would get a smile and an "atta boy", but little else.



As a native Arizonan, it hurts me to constantly hear reports about how we're low in educational standards compared to other states. At the same time, I cringe when I keep hearing that more funding is needed. We can't keep throwing money at the problem because the beast only grows larger, and the standards don't improve. Again, this is why I favor private schools because practically any time the government is involved, there is going to be an excessive amount of waste & incompetence.
Private schools are too expensive for lower income families, so I guess their kids just wouldn't go to school in your ideal world
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Old 05-23-2021, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Willo Historic District, Phoenix, AZ
3,106 posts, read 4,989,206 times
Reputation: 3553
This has turned into the umpteenth airing of Valley Native's oft-repeated belief that public schools should cease to exist.
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:10 AM
 
7,040 posts, read 8,483,952 times
Reputation: 6420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
I've spoken out on many items which involve government waste & incompetence: everything from ADOT on a local level to our involvement in foreign conflicts on a national level.
Yes, you have mentioned those items before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
The main reason I focus so much on paying for schools is all the other government waste doesn't force me to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket every year like the public school system does.
"Thousands". If memory serves me, we are talking about 2 of them ($2Kish). Now if you were paying $10K-$15K like someone in CA, I think you would have 5x more reasons to complain. I guess I don't see that a couple of Grand is enough to get my undies in a bundle. Oh, I know there is a waste! Anytime someone spends someone else's money, that's what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
specifically for things that benefit ME. It's the principle of the matter. Even though I decided to pass on having kids, I'm still paying for everybody else's reproductive choices, and public schools serve no purpose to me whatsoever.
Put that superior private education to work: public schools DO serve you! I'll give you a single personal example. I grew up poor with parent "reproductive choices" that include having kids (I was the #6 child) and we were broke. They were on all kinds of government assistance programs. Yea, we went to a public school. In fact, Anoka HS. Home of Garrison Keilor (Prairie Home Companion), Michelle Bachman (vocal GOP Representative), and Gretchen Carlson (Fox News anchor who brought down Roger Ailes). It's a public school and I've met them all.

I think I grew up to be a semi-productive person. Some of those satellites flying overhead used non-volatile memories (MRAM) that have radiation-hardened technology in them because of me (I was a process engineer at Honeywell). I could go on and discuss 100,000 examples of people who were broke that have helped you too. To say otherwise isn't worth discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
Private schools tend to put greater focus on preparing students for life in the real world. They put greater emphasis on respect for one another, and many even require require uniforms to be worn, which puts every student on the same level & reduces peer pressure. The fact that classroom sizes are smaller also benefits kids, as they receive better one on one learning.
I went to the same HS as my kids. I had lousy parenting so I wasn't pushed. Though my teachers pushed me. But it has to come from the parents in order to be fully realized. But how are you qualifying "preparing students for life in the real world"? Because of all of the competitive sporting events that you experienced in your small private? Did your classmates families have multiple incomes and ethnicities? Because a (keyword) quality diverse public school with all walks of life will actually help you prepare. In our kid's day-to-day experiences, our DD occasionally works on former meth teeth addicts and she gets paid very well for rebuilding their mouth. People hire who they trust. Or like my DS (ER Doc) needs to gain the trust of someone who was shot (20 times this past week??) even though he is white as can be and went to Harvard Medical School. Sometimes in life, you need to be a chameleon and dummy down. I've put my "real world" street smart education to work hundreds of times. Now if you are a hand-off parent, by all means, place your kid in a bubble. And for some, private is the way to go. Or if you live in the hood, all of the funds go to the (EXPENSIVE) problem kids. Then I would go private in a heartbeat!

Small privates have liabilities too. They lack the budget for all kinds of programs that SOME kids need. Like competitive sports. Or maybe they want more arts-focused education. How was your marching band / music program? I graduated with close to 1000 kids. Our (back then) was stellar! We literally had 5 full bands in 10th-12th grade. That's called competition. Here is Gretchen Carlson (Anoka, MN) later MS. America. I graduated with her and played in her Orchestra. My Conn French Horn was $3500. When you pay cheap tuition, that gets cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w19oF6c3kJk

Also, most privates are cheaper because they are really good at dumping special education kids. So before you quote pricing differences, realize a single child can fry up $80K per year (out of fear of more lawsuits) in order to learn how to tie their shoe. Talk to any school board member for a few hours (I have) and they can fill you in on the budget details and why.

I'm sure if we decided to send out kids to a private, I might be convinced their accomplishments were the school. But I know better because I studied all of the trade-offs. And there ARE trade-offs between publics and privates. The big gains (by far) are in the kid's gene pool (which includes dopamine/motivation) and parenting. The school is not remotely close in comparison. It's why it takes huge dollars to attract teachers to poor parts of the country and they have MASSIVE budgets without results. The parents (and kids) don't care. And they spend massive dollars for babysitting, police, etc. BUT, So long as you have programs and have motivated teachers AND you have plenty of quality families, you can extract some impressive results.

Finally, there are other programs outside of K-12 like National History Day, Boys State, and dozens of other state and business partnerships that make kids' education world-class. Our kids participated in these because my wife worked hard as a parent. I will agree that the TOP expensive privates push their kids to expand with those programs. But they hire the staff ($$) to coordinate. Still, our kids went to college (paid for my MN) in 11th and 12th grade. Show me any private that can compare when they were in 11th and 12th grade taking University level classes and acing them. Sorry, AP classes are not in the same league. All the while, they are learning "in the real world".

I'll give you props on the smaller class sizes. Luckily, our kids learned how to learn and can dig the info out of the books. But that's not good enough for many. And there are a lot of lippy kids in public. The privates won't put up with it. If I had an average motivated and average talented kid, I could see the benefit of privates. But I for one was not afraid of them being exposed to the "real world". The best I can tell, they did o.k.

I enjoy the topic. So forgive my passion.

Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 05-24-2021 at 06:25 AM..
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Old 05-24-2021, 05:46 PM
 
500 posts, read 250,255 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
You don't think I'm outraged at our government wasting money on all the things you mentioned? That would be completely false. I've spoken out on many items which involve government waste & incompetence: everything from ADOT on a local level to our involvement in foreign conflicts on a national level. The main reason I focus so much on paying for schools is all the other government waste doesn't force me to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket every year like the public school system does. You may think that's paltry, but I should be able to do what I want with my own money ... specifically for things that benefit ME. It's the principle of the matter. Even though I decided to pass on having kids, I'm still paying for everybody else's reproductive choices, and public schools serve no purpose to me whatsoever.



Private schools tend to put greater focus on preparing students for life in the real world. They put greater emphasis on respect for one another, and many even require require uniforms to be worn, which puts every student on the same level & reduces peer pressure. The fact that classroom sizes are smaller also benefits kids, as they receive better one on one learning.

All in all, the main benefit of switching to a privatized system (which I admit will never happen) is: the taxpayers are saved a tremendous amount of money. Frankly, I'm glad your neighbor spent all that money on private school. More than likely, their kids would have headed down the same path regardless of what kind of education they received. There have been intelligent, successful people who came from the public system, and there have failures who came from the private system. Bottom line is: more failures are still passed through the public system, and I'd much rather see parents pay for their own children's education (and everything else) out of their own wallets, regardless of how they turn out.



The points I bolded above are precisely what private schools focus on compared to even the best publics. Of course GPA is important to successfully master the subjects while in school, and it's a proud accomplishment to graduate with honors. In the real world, however, it mostly means that a person completed the curriculum requirements. I work in the financial sector, so I can only relate to my own experience. When I screened candidates, I looked for experience, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, long term goals, etc. Somebody who listed a high GPA and mastering tests as his top accomplishments would get a smile and an "atta boy", but little else.



As a native Arizonan, it hurts me to constantly hear reports about how we're low in educational standards compared to other states. At the same time, I cringe when I keep hearing that more funding is needed. We can't keep throwing money at the problem because the beast only grows larger, and the standards don't improve. Again, this is why I favor private schools because practically any time the government is involved, there is going to be an excessive amount of waste & incompetence.
Yep, just look at the percentage of school budgets that never make it into the classrooms. And then there are about four times more districts than is reasonably necessary. The smallest county in the state has seven (Santa Cruz, population 40,000).
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Old Yesterday, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
1,036 posts, read 533,762 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
Yes, you have mentioned those items before.



"Thousands". If memory serves me, we are talking about 2 of them ($2Kish). Now if you were paying $10K-$15K like someone in CA, I think you would have 5x more reasons to complain. I guess I don't see that a couple of Grand is enough to get my undies in a bundle. Oh, I know there is a waste! Anytime someone spends someone else's money, that's what happens.



Put that superior private education to work: public schools DO serve you! I'll give you a single personal example. I grew up poor with parent "reproductive choices" that include having kids (I was the #6 child) and we were broke. They were on all kinds of government assistance programs. Yea, we went to a public school. In fact, Anoka HS. Home of Garrison Keilor (Prairie Home Companion), Michelle Bachman (vocal GOP Representative), and Gretchen Carlson (Fox News anchor who brought down Roger Ailes). It's a public school and I've met them all.

I think I grew up to be a semi-productive person. Some of those satellites flying overhead used non-volatile memories (MRAM) that have radiation-hardened technology in them because of me (I was a process engineer at Honeywell). I could go on and discuss 100,000 examples of people who were broke that have helped you too. To say otherwise isn't worth discussing.


I went to the same HS as my kids. I had lousy parenting so I wasn't pushed. Though my teachers pushed me. But it has to come from the parents in order to be fully realized. But how are you qualifying "preparing students for life in the real world"? Because of all of the competitive sporting events that you experienced in your small private? Did your classmates families have multiple incomes and ethnicities? Because a (keyword) quality diverse public school with all walks of life will actually help you prepare. In our kid's day-to-day experiences, our DD occasionally works on former meth teeth addicts and she gets paid very well for rebuilding their mouth. People hire who they trust. Or like my DS (ER Doc) needs to gain the trust of someone who was shot (20 times this past week??) even though he is white as can be and went to Harvard Medical School. Sometimes in life, you need to be a chameleon and dummy down. I've put my "real world" street smart education to work hundreds of times. Now if you are a hand-off parent, by all means, place your kid in a bubble. And for some, private is the way to go. Or if you live in the hood, all of the funds go to the (EXPENSIVE) problem kids. Then I would go private in a heartbeat!

Small privates have liabilities too. They lack the budget for all kinds of programs that SOME kids need. Like competitive sports. Or maybe they want more arts-focused education. How was your marching band / music program? I graduated with close to 1000 kids. Our (back then) was stellar! We literally had 5 full bands in 10th-12th grade. That's called competition. Here is Gretchen Carlson (Anoka, MN) later MS. America. I graduated with her and played in her Orchestra. My Conn French Horn was $3500. When you pay cheap tuition, that gets cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w19oF6c3kJk

Also, most privates are cheaper because they are really good at dumping special education kids. So before you quote pricing differences, realize a single child can fry up $80K per year (out of fear of more lawsuits) in order to learn how to tie their shoe. Talk to any school board member for a few hours (I have) and they can fill you in on the budget details and why.

I'm sure if we decided to send out kids to a private, I might be convinced their accomplishments were the school. But I know better because I studied all of the trade-offs. And there ARE trade-offs between publics and privates. The big gains (by far) are in the kid's gene pool (which includes dopamine/motivation) and parenting. The school is not remotely close in comparison. It's why it takes huge dollars to attract teachers to poor parts of the country and they have MASSIVE budgets without results. The parents (and kids) don't care. And they spend massive dollars for babysitting, police, etc. BUT, So long as you have programs and have motivated teachers AND you have plenty of quality families, you can extract some impressive results.

Finally, there are other programs outside of K-12 like National History Day, Boys State, and dozens of other state and business partnerships that make kids' education world-class. Our kids participated in these because my wife worked hard as a parent. I will agree that the TOP expensive privates push their kids to expand with those programs. But they hire the staff ($$) to coordinate. Still, our kids went to college (paid for my MN) in 11th and 12th grade. Show me any private that can compare when they were in 11th and 12th grade taking University level classes and acing them. Sorry, AP classes are not in the same league. All the while, they are learning "in the real world".

I'll give you props on the smaller class sizes. Luckily, our kids learned how to learn and can dig the info out of the books. But that's not good enough for many. And there are a lot of lippy kids in public. The privates won't put up with it. If I had an average motivated and average talented kid, I could see the benefit of privates. But I for one was not afraid of them being exposed to the "real world". The best I can tell, they did o.k.

I enjoy the topic. So forgive my passion.
Public schools aren't what they used to be. I'll leave it at that.
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