Are schools in the Phoenix metro really that bad? (Sun City: middle school, university)

[asufan]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

My youngest sister went to Hamilton. She moved to St Pete, FL her junior year. She was about a year behind the other students. They almost had to hold her back (and she had a 4.0 before moving).

Same with my wife. She taught HS in Michigan. When she moved here and started teaching, the 10th graders in AZ were learning what she taught the 9th graders in MI.

I'm not singling out Hamilton - just saying that schooling in AZ tends to be a little behind a lot of other states.

I find it hard to believe she was "a year behind" across the board. Maybe a year behind in math because of what math classes her parents chose or maybe even science. I doubt social studies, English etc are taught much different at the same grade levels everything else being equal. Parents have some choice in what classes their kids are in and it sounds like they chose wrong at Hamilton.

Also, 4.0 sounds good but to me it means they weren't in any honors classes. Most kids that go into the good universities are over 4 due to the advanced classes.

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

I don't run and hide from others' viewpoints. If they're laughable and based on unfounded paranoia, like Phoenix metro public schools "indoctrinating" children, I'll challenge them, sure.

I give our educators all the credit in the world. They have incredibly difficult, yet immensely important jobs, and to suggest that they are in someway brainwashing children is absolutely absurd and no one needs to accept that as a differing "viewpoint".

What I'm saying is that why do you care what I do with my own child? It's weird. Very weird. I don't want my kids in public school. Simple as that. They are very socialized. Play sports. Are normal kids. Why you have a problem with that and feel the need to insert your unsolicited opinions is beyond me.

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by asufan

I find it hard to believe she was "a year behind" across the board. Maybe a year behind in math because of what math classes her parents chose or maybe even science. I doubt social studies, English etc are taught much different at the same grade levels everything else being equal. Parents have some choice in what classes their kids are in and it sounds like they chose wrong at Hamilton.

Also, 4.0 sounds good but to me it means they weren't in any honors classes. Most kids that go into the good universities are over 4 due to the advanced classes.

I'm not that close with my sister so I don't know the full scope of the issue. I doubt it was across the board.

As far as my wife was concerned, she taught English. Books they were reading and the grammar being taught in Arizona was a grade behind. That was her experience; however, she was teaching out in El Mirage/Dysart schools, so that may have played a part as well.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

I'm not that close with my sister so I don't know the full scope of the issue. I doubt it was across the board.

As far as my wife was concerned, she taught English. Books they were reading and the grammar being taught in Arizona was a grade behind. That was her experience; however, she was teaching out in El Mirage/Dysart schools, so that may have played a part as well.

Hamilton tests very well compared nationally, which is saying something considering it's the largest high school in the state by far. The large school size is a reason we're also considering AZ College Prep which will have a new South Chandler campus Fall 2021. As long as you're pushing your kids (not simply doing the minimum to graduate but enough to build a resume for college), the better schools here are more than adequate.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

What I'm saying is that why do you care what I do with my own child? It's weird. Very weird. I don't want my kids in public school. Simple as that. They are very socialized. Play sports. Are normal kids. Why you have a problem with that and feel the need to insert your unsolicited opinions is beyond me.

Where did I say I care about you or your kids? This is a discussion forum. It's nothing but opinions.

[john3232]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

So true ^^! The problem is, >>50% of kids in school coast. I coasted. So I too wasted funds. But for those who care (a third?), I'm all about spending the money. Because the top 20% of the people drive this countries economy (the universally true 80-20 rule). And THANKFULLY, we are attracting the best in the brightest from other countries too. For those who don't appreciate the top foreigners wanting to be here. There is a saying: the A's hire A's, and the B's hire C's. B players are deathly afraid of hiring someone better than them. And we all know why.

Anyways, trying to measure improvements are tough because the top spending districts often are the problem ones. So trying to data-mine the value-add is nearly impossible. Look at it this way: it seems in every other topic if you spend more, you either get better quality or better service. If you say education is immune to be "better" when you spend more, I say you are crazy.

Re: helicopter parents. There is a balance that some people cross. We gave them a lot of leeway to think and do for themselves. I didn't come to their rescue when they got into spats or if they got picked on. They had to work it out for themselves after we talked about ways to handle it. Though I admit I did encourage my son to fight a couple of times. That fixed a couple of problems.

Imo, the biggest issue I see regarding US public education are students who fail to grasp at least a solid 9th grade level of reading, writing and math. Unfortutantly, no amount of money will change this until education is valued in the home.

With regards to teachers: The paid vacation a public teacher receives is a strong incentive (imo) for many to stay in the profession. They might not think the pay fantastic but they love the time off. So, while teaching in a crappy Phx public school might not be particularly enjoyable there is a light at the end of the tunnel and then... a nice long vacation.

With regards to Gilbert or Chandler the public schools are fine where I own property. My guess is most parents are involved and teachers kept on their toes. I don't know the qualifications of those hired but suspect they aren't too shabby.

Success in life can be attributed to many areas including ambition and/or socials skills. But if you don't have at least have a basic grasp of the three R's you're stuck. Now, some might be fortunate and have an aptitude for making or fixing things but otherwise forget it.

How to solve this? I don't know but I do know if more money was the answer SF would have done so years ago.

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

Where did I say I care about you or your kids? This is a discussion forum. It's nothing but opinions.

You seem very concerned about their lack of recess, socialization skills, if they will be weird, etc. Your words, not mine.

Just stick to your own Melrose bubble and all will be fine in the world.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

You seem very concerned about their lack of recess, socialization skills, if they will be weird, etc. Your words, not mine.

Just stick to your own Melrose bubble and all will be fine in the world.

Stating likely outcomes doesn't equal concern whatsoever. What's a "Melrose bubble" and why do I need to stick to it?

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

You cannot put all "privates" in one bucket or "public schools" in all the same. But people do. Like "private schools are better" (per VN). It depends.

Private schools as a general rule are superior to the public system, but that doesn't mean all private schools are better. Even parents who enroll their kids in poorly rated private schools are doing taxpayers a favor by paying the costs out of their own pockets. That's the main issue for me. We can debate all we want, but public schools do not benefit me, nor anybody else who is childless. You said you don't mind contributing to the system, and that's great. The government admires the ones who throw extra money into their coffers. Some of us prefer to have a system where people actually pay for what they use, and many more of us would like to keep our money for our own uses. That's what it boils down to.

As a side note to the common response that many parents can't afford private school: I believe many of them could afford it if they'd cut back on needless, frivolous expenses. I guess I was raised with a different set of values than the norm. We believe in taking care of our own. There are many ways to make sacrifices and ensure children receive the best education & upbringing possible. Using other people's money to do so creates not only waste, but an entitlement attitude where people actually expect the government/taxpayers to subsidize their lifestyle choices.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Private schools as a general rule are superior to the public system, but that doesn't mean all private schools are better. Even parents who enroll their kids in poorly rated private schools are doing taxpayers a favor by paying the costs out of their own pockets. That's the main issue for me. We can debate all we want, but public schools do not benefit me, nor anybody else who is childless. You said you don't mind contributing to the system, and that's great. The government admires the ones who throw extra money into their coffers. Some of us prefer to have a system where people actually pay for what they use, and many more of us would like to keep our money for our own uses. That's what it boils down to.

As a side note to the common response that many parents can't afford private school: I believe many of them could afford it if they'd cut back on needless, frivolous expenses. I guess I was raised with a different set of values than the norm. We believe in taking care of our own. There are many ways to make sacrifices and ensure children receive the best education & upbringing possible. Using other people's money to do so creates not only waste, but an entitlement attitude where people actually expect the government/taxpayers to subsidize their lifestyle choices.

We disagree. But since you stated “privates are better” as if it were a fact, I will do the same: Many private schools (which are often small) are inferior to well-funded, larger public schools. Specifically, because students who want competitive sports and advanced classes are screwed. Competitive sports for instance are just one glaring example of “real world” training. Some less-than-ideal small public or small private extra circulars don't cut the mustard. It is why many parents dodge small public schools (we did) and smaller privates (we did). Plus, many privates simply lack infrastructure. The GREAT privates IMO are larger and always cost more than their compatible public counterparts. I am not talking about $25k per year publics that automatically means they reside in the hood with semi-worthless results. I am saying large, well-funded privates that charge more money are better. Because they have a higher concentration of motivated families, are able to avoid much of the LEGAL and EXPENSIVE funding obligations (special education, police babysitting psychologists, etc). They are the only privates that are superior. And they are superior! Sorry, Our Lady of _____, small Catholic school isn’t going to work. Unless you consider bible classes to be your litmus test for superior education.

We have differing opinions. I am a parent that interviewed some local privates. While I appreciated their enthusiasm, as a whole, there were trade-offs. The several local privates that we examined went backward on some key programs. Anything that was superior in our eyes would require us to move farther away from our lake home. And it was going to cost from memory, about $18k a year with two kids. At that time and again from memory, our district #11 was spending about $9500 per kid. So we decided to pick a local large HS versus an hour daily drive + $18K a year.

I’ve also talked with school board members regarding funding. I placed my bet accordingly.

As for society not benefiting from public education (and that means you too). That’s an asinine statement. Someone is either being pigheaded or missed out on critical thinking skills.

Anyways, the horse has been beaten. I wish you luck dodging school property taxes. Though I bet we can agree that the day it is legal to reduce funding for kids and families that don’t care and waste education funding, I’m in. But that will be tied up in court.