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The team really belongs in downtown Phoenix, but the Tempe location is still much better than Westgate.
So build another arena downtown? 'Cuz the one already there was tried and didn't work - America West Arena was primarily designed for basketball and had to be quickly retrofitted for hockey. The arena floor was barely large enough to fit an NHL regulation size hockey rink and several seats on the upper level actually hung over the boards. That obstructed the views for up to 3,000 spectators. As a result, before the team's second season in Phoenix, its hockey seating capacity was cut down from 18,000+ seats to 16,210. America West Arena was the smallest NHL venue.
And they won't rent anywhere anyway. Ticket sales alone don't pay the bills - it's own or fully control all revenue from the place or nothing.
Previous ownership groups tried several times over the years to move to Tempe but just couldn't get a deal that worked for both sides.
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Originally Posted by Valley Native
The Coyotes' financial struggles were mainly the result of poor management and the horrible location. Westgate itself was such a financial boondoggle that it even faced foreclosure at one time. The city of Glendale took over and bailed them out with taxpayer money. All that mess could have been avoided if the team stayed downtown or moved to Tempe early on.
Glendale's problems were of their own making. They did not take over the arena from the team. They built and owned and the arena from the beginning. They were so desperate to look like a big-boy city that they gave away the farm just to get a franchise. Right off the bat they signed away management rights in a deal so bad they were never going to come out ahead even if the place had sold-out events every night. Then they threw more money down the toilet year after year to keep the team there.
The Coyotes didn't own it and Glendale didn't manage/control it. Lose-lose. Now Glendale has given up the team in exchange for controlling the arena and hopefully making it a successful proposition for the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
It will definitely be a much needed improvement compared to what is there now. I'm still skeptical about whether it will actually be built to full scale as planned due to the controversy over the the jet noise (a non issue as far as I'm concerned). Also, we've seen a good share of proposed developments that looked promising at first, but were either scaled back or scrapped all together. Let's see if it comes to fruition.
I hope it gets done and works out all around. However, keep in mind that all the previous Coyotes owners were also super-rich guys with reputations for getting things done.
And they won't rent anywhere anyway. Ticket sales alone don't pay the bills - it's own or fully control all revenue from the place or nothing.
Previous ownership groups tried several times over the years to move to Tempe but just couldn't get a deal that worked for both sides.
I hope it gets done and works out all around. However, keep in mind that all the previous Coyotes owners were also super-rich guys with reputations for getting things done.
I wasn't aware of previous ownership groups trying several times to move to Tempe, what we're those proposals like? I moved here in 2002 at that point it was already in set that the Yotes we're moving to Glendale, the arena opened in 2003 I believe.
I wasn't aware of previous ownership groups trying several times to move to Tempe, what we're those proposals like? I moved here in 2002 at that point it was already in set that the Yotes we're moving to Glendale, the arena opened in 2003 I believe.
The same idea over and over - a shared, multi-use facility at ASU. The Coyotes figured to use the power of the school, and by extension, the state, to get huge tax breaks, publically-backed financing, and the ability to build whatever they wanted regardless of what the city said. ASU wanted a free state-of-the-art arena to draw big NCAA events.
And the same issue came up over and over - both sides needed more than a 50/50 split for the financials to work and neither side wanted to be the "tenant."
I suspect it would have ended up a lot like the terrible deal the Hurricanes have in Raleigh, where NC State gets all the high-revenue dates like weekend nights and around holidays, and the Hurricanes get stuck on long road trips when they have the state high-school tournament the NCAA Regionals.
There were also several attempts to do something with the Pima-Maricopa Community along the 101 in Scottsdale, but I don't think either side was ever overly enthusiastic. More of a Plan B.
There were also several attempts to do something with the Pima-Maricopa Community along the 101 in Scottsdale, but I don't think either side was ever overly enthusiastic. More of a Plan B.
The key is a central location. A location up by Talking Stick Resort doesn't quite fit that criteria. A sizeable fanbase exists in Chandler and Gilbert, which is why a Tempe location is desirable.
So build another arena downtown? 'Cuz the one already there was tried and didn't work - America West Arena was primarily designed for basketball and had to be quickly retrofitted for hockey. The arena floor was barely large enough to fit an NHL regulation size hockey rink and several seats on the upper level actually hung over the boards. That obstructed the views for up to 3,000 spectators. As a result, before the team's second season in Phoenix, its hockey seating capacity was cut down from 18,000+ seats to 16,210. America West Arena was the smallest NHL venue.
And they won't rent anywhere anyway. Ticket sales alone don't pay the bills - it's own or fully control all revenue from the place or nothing.
If Footprint Center (formerly America West Arena) wasn't up to scale for pro hockey, another arena could have been built in the downtown area instead of a stupid location like the outskirts of Glendale where no infrastructure even existed at the time. In the early 2000s, there were still plenty of vacant spaces, parking lots, and old buildings in the downtown area which could have been razed for a new arena. So all I'm saying is if the Tempe location doesn't work out for whatever reason, the best option for the Coyotes is downtown Phoenix instead of some far flung location. As Pink Jazz correctly stated: a centralized location is best. The SRR is among the last places a major sports/entertainment complex should be considered.
Nobody thought Glendale would work except the rose-colored-glasses-wearing politicians in Glendale. The Coyotes were along for the ride for as long as the city kept throwing cash at them. Attendance numbers were a minor issue.
You're still focused on a model based on full attendance with single-game ticket sales and the convenience to achieve that. That may be what's best for you, but it does nothing for the team.
Listen up: FORGET ATTENDANCE. A SOLD OUT 20,000 SEAT ARENA AT AN AVERAGE TICKET PRICE OF $150 (Face value before fees and taxes) DOESN'T EVEN COVER PLAYER SALARIES FOR THAT GAME, AND PLAYER SALARIES ARE LESS THAN 30% OF THE OPERATING COSTS FOR A FRANCHISE.
Teams need money from other sources to be profitable (or at least keep losses within the realm of an acceptable tax write-off):
TV
*#Parking
*Concessions
Luxury Box/Suite sales
Guaranteed season ticket base (ideally corporate)
*#Management contract for the complex
*Arena naming rights
*Revenue from other events at the building
*#Revenue from dining/retail/hotels at the complex
*#Tax breaks
*Not available or greatly reduced if renting at someone else's facility
#Not available or greatly reduced at an arena-only complex
The time to build downtown has passed. They could build an arena where there are already hotels and restaurants and parking garages, but get absolutely no benefit from those hotels and restaurants and parking garages. And the cost to acquire the space downtown to build everything they want, if it even exists, would be prohibitive. As would be the increased costs to develop a downtown site.
I get it. You'd like to be able to take in a game occasionally as part of a night out downtown. The Canadian snowbirds in the West Valley wish the team would stay in Glendale for the couple times a year that Winnipeg or Edmonton comes to town. I gave up my season tickets and won't buy them again unless they go to Plan Z and build the new arena at Turf Paradise or somewhere else convenient to me. Unfortunately, the Coyotes don't care if you and the snowbirds never go to another game, and my season tickets will be replaced 10 times over in the new location.
The Tempe site ticks off every single item on the above list, so if the Coyotes are staying in Arizona, that's where they're going. If you, me, and the people on the west side want to see a game, we'll just have to suck it up and get ourselves over to Tempe.
Nobody thought Glendale would work except the rose-colored-glasses-wearing politicians in Glendale. The Coyotes were along for the ride for as long as the city kept throwing cash at them. Attendance numbers were a minor issue.
You're still focused on a model based on full attendance with single-game ticket sales and the convenience to achieve that. That may be what's best for you, but it does nothing for the team.
Listen up: FORGET ATTENDANCE. A SOLD OUT 20,000 SEAT ARENA AT AN AVERAGE TICKET PRICE OF $150 (Face value before fees and taxes) DOESN'T EVEN COVER PLAYER SALARIES FOR THAT GAME, AND PLAYER SALARIES ARE LESS THAN 30% OF THE OPERATING COSTS FOR A FRANCHISE.
Teams need money from other sources to be profitable (or at least keep losses within the realm of an acceptable tax write-off):
TV
*#Parking
*Concessions
Luxury Box/Suite sales
Guaranteed season ticket base (ideally corporate)
*#Management contract for the complex
*Arena naming rights
*Revenue from other events at the building
*#Revenue from dining/retail/hotels at the complex
*#Tax breaks
*Not available or greatly reduced if renting at someone else's facility
#Not available or greatly reduced at an arena-only complex
The time to build downtown has passed. They could build an arena where there are already hotels and restaurants and parking garages, but get absolutely no benefit from those hotels and restaurants and parking garages. And the cost to acquire the space downtown to build everything they want, if it even exists, would be prohibitive. As would be the increased costs to develop a downtown site.
I get it. You'd like to be able to take in a game occasionally as part of a night out downtown. The Canadian snowbirds in the West Valley wish the team would stay in Glendale for the couple times a year that Winnipeg or Edmonton comes to town. I gave up my season tickets and won't buy them again unless they go to Plan Z and build the new arena at Turf Paradise or somewhere else convenient to me. Unfortunately, the Coyotes don't care if you and the snowbirds never go to another game, and my season tickets will be replaced 10 times over in the new location.
The Tempe site ticks off every single item on the above list, so if the Coyotes are staying in Arizona, that's where they're going. If you, me, and the people on the west side want to see a game, we'll just have to suck it up and get ourselves over to Tempe.
Incorrect. NHL derives more of their total revenue from the gate than the other leagues. They are not like the NFL.
Incorrect. NHL derives more of their total revenue from the gate than the other leagues. They are not like the NFL.
It may be more than other leagues but still not the main revenue driver. It's nowhere near enough to even cover expenses.
20,000 seats at $70 ($85 is league average, Coyotes average $55 but I'll be generous and split it) = $1.4 million/game
23-man Coyotes roster projected for next season (roster not yet final) = $0.7 million/game
But you need to double that 'cuz half the games are away with no ticket money, so $1.4 million/game
So ticket revenue just covers player salaries.
But wait! Teams don't have just 23 players. In fact, they carry 45-50 player contracts. Many minor leaguers and prospects playing elsewhere are paid by the 'Yotes. Plus injured players, bought-out players, salary retained in trades, etc.
We're already way in the red and we haven't even started on non-player personnel. Coaching staff, scouting staff, training staff, equipment staff, management and other front-office... The Coyotes have 160+ off-ice employees.
Now for the big money - non-personnel expenses eclipse salaries: Equipment, team travel, practice/training facilities, insurance, facility maintenance/upgrades, offices, utilities, Zamboni fuel...
And the entire Tucson Roadrunner operation, which is not remotely self-sufficient.
Yes, ticket revenue is important. More important than in other sports. But a team still needs other major income streams, and everything matters, right down to their cut of beer sales from the ADAA Dodgeball Invitational.
Announced last month: Glendale City Council member proposes moving the city hall to Westgate. According to the article, renovations are planned to take place at the current city hall building to the tune of $70 million. At this point, I'm guessing moving to Westgate won't happen, based on the fact that contractors were already hired to renovate the downtown location. Also, how much would it cost for a new building in a new location compared to simply revamping the current site?
Meanwhile, what will be going on at Desert Diamond Arena (formerly Gila River Arena) now that the Coyotes are out? In the next month or so, the star attractions appear to be mainly bull riding competitions, and a few concerts in the metal, rap, and country genres. Can't wait to get my tickets for the Ridge Riders, Rage Against the Machine, Nelly, and Alan Jackson. My kind of entertainment!
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Announced last month: Glendale City Council member proposes moving the city hall to Westgate. According to the article, renovations are planned to take place at the current city hall building to the tune of $70 million. At this point, I'm guessing moving to Westgate won't happen, based on the fact that contractors were already hired to renovate the downtown location. Also, how much would it cost for a new building in a new location compared to simply revamping the current site?
Meanwhile, what will be going on at Desert Diamond Arena (formerly Gila River Arena) now that the Coyotes are out? In the next month or so, the star attractions appear to be mainly bull riding competitions, and a few concerts in the metal, rap, and country genres. Can't wait to get my tickets for the Ridge Riders, Rage Against the Machine, Nelly, and Alan Jackson. My kind of entertainment!
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Likely a couple hundred million to build new.
I don't think the arena is gonna survive long-term without an anchor tenant and it's 45 - 50 guaranteed events. The study that led them to not renew the lease with the Coyotes was as flawed and pie-in-the-sky over-optimistic as the original plan to build it in the first place.
Tractor pulls, monster truck rallies, bull riding and country music. Welcome to Skoal Arena.
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