What is the major difference between living in prime Scottsdale neighborhoods vs. Phoenix neighborhoods? (Tempe: rental, hotels)

[pbenjamin]

[quote=Prickly Pear;63539483]Phoenix already has the perfect area for this. With Roosevelt Row on the southern end and Camelback road on the far northern end of not maybe Indian School road, between the 7s. You have the world class Burton Barr library, Phoenix opera house, the art museum, Hance Park, Steele park, plenty of jobs, Melrose, etc. here in the Midtown area. /QUOTE]

What is this opera house of which you speak? Arizona Opera on Central is offices and a rehearsal hall, it appears. The website mentions the Herberger, Symphony Hall and Tucson as performance venues.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Phoenix’s problem, which I’ve stated many times, is that it outright refuses to learn the definitions of “contiguous” “continuity” and it builds the right stuff, but in isolated pockets that benefits no body. People like myself want a good homogenous area of these amenities, rather than random pockets, and people on the other side of the spectrum don’t want these bigger apartment complexes built in their communities, but developers are forced to put them there because the city refused to fight inner ring NIMBYs on the areas where these developments make the most sense.

I'm glad you recognize that Phoenix has a NIMBY problem. When residents in the Coronado neighborhood protested a 15 story building on 7th Street & Thomas because of concerns with height & traffic, that's definitely a knee jerk reaction on their part, being that they live in a centralized area where taller buildings & traffic are expected. Same with the ones who tried to fight against the new development at 44th Street & Camelback because they didn't want their mountain views obstructed. The list of protests & lawsuits over the years has been seemingly endless with these pathetic NIMBYs. It's not just in the inner ring areas either. Notice how many complaints on this forum alone have been about things like helicopters & Luke AFB aircraft.

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Phoenix already has the perfect area for this. With Roosevelt Row on the southern end and Camelback road on the far northern end of not maybe Indian School road, between the 7s. You have the world class Burton Barr library, Phoenix opera house, the art museum, Hance Park, Steele park, plenty of jobs, Melrose, etc. here in the Midtown area. The problem is is that Phoenix refuses to upzone this area. Phoenix needs to rezone this as high rise only (taller than 4 over 1s) with the exception of historic properties, and enforce developers to develop contracts with the insanely high amount of low quality commercial to not disrupt community flow. They can build their ground floor commercial first and open it while they work on the upper floors, essentially buying and using their air rights. Park central is screaming for a redevelopment. But instead of working on building a contiguous area, they allow pockets of this development in random suburban islands like Desert Sky Mall, Kierland, PV mall, etc. which again benefit no body.

You make some good points here, but keep in mind that Kierland benefits many people who live in NE Phoenix & north Scottsdale. It was nothing but empty land 30 years ago, which benefited nobody for a long time. Also, PV Mall was pretty much vacant for a while, and becoming an eyesore. Metrocenter is just as bad, if not worse. Suburban styled malls of that nature have become obsolete, which is why new multi purpose complexes are proposed for those sites. What would you rather have: empty land or large empty shells deteriorating, serving no purpose, and causing blight, or 21st Century styled developments which enhance the area, provide jobs, and services to people? I choose the latter.

[The Global Citizen]

Interesting points. I think people who live in East Phoenix/West Scottsdale would argue they have the best of worlds as well with Kierland Commons, Old Town Scottsdale, and Fashion Square and the many, many "Shops at ..." are all within 10 mins drive. It really does come down to preference, expectations, and tolerance. Great points.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

The list of protests & lawsuits over the years has been seemingly endless with these pathetic NIMBYs. It's not just in the inner ring areas either. Notice how many complaints on this forum alone have been about things like helicopters & Luke AFB aircraft.

Actually, there have been very few complaints on this forum about Luke AFB. Rather, constant bantering about the actual realities. Because many people are in denial or lack the knowledge because they go off to work out of the area during peak flights. So a dozen conversations in which I was involved was nearly always was about "know what you are getting into before you buy".

For us, the solution was to move. I'm not an idiot. I did my homework ahead of time. Things changed from F16s to F35s. I called Luke not to complain, but rather, to understand what they predicted to happen in the future. They were here 1st and I would never want them to leave the area. Their answer was to add 50% more F35s. And I politely left while waving my flag in their support. After all, I know a lot of future USAFA/F35 pilots and trainers who are my sons' closest friends. Dozens were invited to my house in Surprise a few times a year during our sons' college visits. I digress.

My preaching and bantering have been about how much different the F16's (in 2011 there were on their way out) sound completely different in comparison to the F35s. So if "Not In My Back Yard", means to be careful, hear another perspective before you move close by OR if it means that I personally sold my place because I don't want to listen to many more plane flights with a louder and deeper noise profile (which those longer sound waves make it much easier to penetrate a housing structure), then, guilty as charged! I simply chose to move and oh do my ears appreciate it! But that's not what you are talking about. NIMBY's fight through protests, legal means, and become a PITA. That wasn't the conversation.

But yes, there have been a lot of helicopter complainers?!

[pathrunner]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I'm glad you recognize that Phoenix has a NIMBY problem. When residents in the Coronado neighborhood protested a 15 story building on 7th Street & Thomas because of concerns with height & traffic, that's definitely a knee jerk reaction on their part, being that they live in a centralized area where taller buildings & traffic are expected. Same with the ones who tried to fight against the new development at 44th Street & Camelback because they didn't want their mountain views obstructed. The list of protests & lawsuits over the years has been seemingly endless with these pathetic NIMBYs. It's not just in the inner ring areas either. Notice how many complaints on this forum alone have been about things like helicopters & Luke AFB aircraft.

You make some good points here, but keep in mind that Kierland benefits many people who live in NE Phoenix & north Scottsdale. It was nothing but empty land 30 years ago, which benefited nobody for a long time. Also, PV Mall was pretty much vacant for a while, and becoming an eyesore. Metrocenter is just as bad, if not worse. Suburban styled malls of that nature have become obsolete, which is why new multi purpose complexes are proposed for those sites. What would you rather have: empty land or large empty shells deteriorating, serving no purpose, and causing blight, or 21st Century styled developments which enhance the area, provide jobs, and services to people? I choose the latter.

I'm interested to see what they do with PV Mall. It certainly did need to be updated. Exciting that it's going to be a multi complex.

I have mixed feelings about the NIMBY situation. I really hate to see beautiful views of the lovely mountains surrounding the area obstructured from view. Nimbyism can be taken too far but I think in this case it's warranted. I absolutely despise that ugly complex that went up at Scottsdale Road and McDonald (NW corner).

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by The Global Citizen

Interesting points. I think people who live in East Phoenix/West Scottsdale would argue they have the best of worlds as well with Kierland Commons, Old Town Scottsdale, and Fashion Square and the many, many "Shops at ..." are all within 10 mins drive. It really does come down to preference, expectations, and tolerance. Great points.

Kierland Commons and Fashion Square (though farther than 10 minutes away) are fantastic. While spread out, there is no shortage of amazing ___________ in the Scottsdale area. Now if someone wants real walkability, then frankly, the list is very short. Here is PHX areas most walkable areas https://www.redfin.com/city/14240/AZ...-neighborhoods . It dops off hard in comparison in Scottsdale https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/...tsdale-Estates

[The Global Citizen]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Kierland Commons and Fashion Square (though farther than 10 minutes away) are fantastic. While spread out, there is no shortage of amazing ___________ in the Scottsdale area. Now if someone wants real walkability, then frankly, the list is very short. Here is PHX areas most walkable areas https://www.redfin.com/city/14240/AZ...-neighborhoods . It dops off hard in comparison in Scottsdale https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/...tsdale-Estates

I'm moving to Phoenix this summer from the Pacific Northwest. I thought that Scottsdale was more disconnected from Phoenix until we began the home search. But the sprawl of Phoenix connects the two cities rather seamlessly. Specifically, when you're in the 50s/60s along the major arteries like Lincoln, Shea, Osborne, and Cactus you're basically in both cities at the same time.

[pathrunner]

Yes, and there are some people who deny that

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Actually, there have been very few complaints on this forum about Luke AFB. Rather, constant bantering about the actual realities. Because many people are in denial or lack the knowledge because they go off to work out of the area during peak flights. So a dozen conversations in which I was involved was nearly always was about "know what you are getting into before you buy".

Several posters (some who are not on here anymore) were experts at raising a fuss over Luke AFB. You might remember JimJ, who was one of them. He raised the same issues you did about the transition from F16 jets to F35s. Still doesn't change the fact that he and his neighbors chose to live in close proximity to Luke AFB. Not all arguments against NIMBYism can be answered or resolved with "it was here first", but it certainly applies in the case of aircraft noise from Luke, Sky Harbor, etc.

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

For us, the solution was to move. I'm not an idiot. I did my homework ahead of time. Things changed from F16s to F35s. I called Luke not to complain, but rather, to understand what they predicted to happen in the future. They were here 1st and I would never want them to leave the area. Their answer was to add 50% more F35s. And I politely left while waving my flag in their support. After all, I know a lot of future USAFA/F35 pilots and trainers who are my sons' closest friends. Dozens were invited to my house in Surprise a few times a year during our sons' college visits. I digress.

My preaching and bantering have been about how much different the F16's (in 2011 there were on their way out) sound completely different in comparison to the F35s. So if "Not In My Back Yard", means to be careful, hear another perspective before you move close by OR if it means that I personally sold my place because I don't want to listen to many more plane flights with a louder and deeper noise profile (which those longer sound waves make it much easier to penetrate a housing structure), then, guilty as charged! I simply chose to move and oh do my ears appreciate it!

Moving is the correct solution in situations where noise from anything becomes a problem to somebody with sensitive ears. It's a simple solution, but certainly better than remaining in place & constantly bellyaching. You complained about the noise, but I don't recall you being a chronic whiner like some have been.

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

But that's not what you are talking about. NIMBY's fight through protests, legal means, and become a PITA.

Absolutely, and that's why I have a NIMBY hot button, as you stated before. They tie up the legal system via our tax money with frivolous lawsuits ... and if they're not doing that, they're protesting & trying to stop practically any kind of development from occurring which would actually enhance an area & increase property values. I personally dealt with NIMBYs in my area over the proposed Trump building on 26th Street & Camelback back around 2005 or so. It wasn't pleasant at all!

What it comes down to is: this is a metro area that is not only large, but continuously growing at a rather fast pace. We can't act small or slow paced, and desire things to be peaceful & tranquil, or expect to have mountain views completely unobstructed. I'm different from some Phoenix natives in that I've always wanted Phoenix to be a large, prosperous city ... one to be proud of. It's sad to see some old buildings & methods disappear, but I see it as part of a life in a place like this. Those who keep resisting development need to move far away from here.

Originally Posted by pathrunner

I have mixed feelings about the NIMBY situation. I really hate to see beautiful views of the lovely mountains surrounding the area obstructured from view. Nimbyism can be taken too far but I think in this case it's warranted. I absolutely despise that ugly complex that went up at Scottsdale Road and McDonald (NW corner).

See my response to MN above. I'll add in response to you that some NIMBYism is warranted depending on the situation. For instance, building a major sports stadium in Payson, or 40 story buildings in Prescott Valley likely wouldn't go over very well. In the Phoenix metro, we can't stop development just because it's going to block somebody's mountain views. Also, ugliness is strictly subjective. Personally, I find some of the "mountains" around Phoenix to be very unattractive, and I also consider dilapidated structures & vacant lots to be far uglier than newer complexes in most cases.

[pathrunner]

Understood. I should have specified that I was referring to the Phoenix Mountain Preserve between Tatum and the 51 fwy, and Shea and Lincoln or Camelback. They do look ugly from far away but when you get on the trails they look really different (flora and fauna).