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Thread summary:

Moving to Arizona: retirement plans, discrimination, fighting racism, Hispanic immigrants, Phoenix.

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Old 02-14-2009, 02:47 PM
430 posts, read 1,392,366 times
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:27 PM
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I'm 100% feed up with illegal Mexican Nationals, and accusations of being called a racist etc no longer works on Me. The hand wringers who spout those accusations only wish to squash the debate by deflecting the truth that everyone can see with there own eyes in any American city. The Federal government has shown They will not stop this invasion. So are Citizens just to sit on their hands and submit to a conquest of their Nation? Our founding Fathers are spinning in their graves.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:42 PM
10,719 posts, read 19,928,927 times
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I understand your concern and if I was judging AZ based on these forums, it would seem like a horrible place to live. However, keep in mind that public forums typically attract people who want to vent or criticize something. Think about it in terms of your own life. If you are angry at something, are you more likely to complain or write a letter or does that occur when you are happy or pleased with something? Typically, it's people who are upset or frustrated with something that find the motivation to vent.

To answer your question, I don't feel like there is a lot of outward resentment or hatred toward illegals. I have lived in conservative areas of the country such as Oklahoma and I have witnessed open resentment and people just being callous with their comments publicly. Maybe there is deep resentment in Arizona regarding illegals but I feel the majority of the population is considerate enough not to vocalize or display that resentment in hate filled public manner. For me, that's all I can ask for because I do respect everyone's right to his or her opinion. All I ask is that people be polite and considerate regarding their opinion and I feel like people do a good job of that here. Furthermore, the state continues to become more liberal as continued number of transplants from liberal areas like California and the upper Midwest move here. So just think of it in terms of you being the solution to the problem by moving here. Good Luck
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:31 PM
Location: Prescott Valley,az summer/east valley Az winter
2,061 posts, read 4,063,281 times
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yep~ the people around the Phoenix area are EXTREMELY prejudiced against the people who they feel are illegals~ even those that have lived here for generations~ fueled by Sherriff Joe who perpetuates it! About those illegals that killed poliuce~ ALL had multiple arrest warrants against them~ but sherriff Joe cannot be bothered to find and serve warrants~ he gotta catch ILLEGALS! He costs millions in lawsuits because he PROSECUTES many suspects before they are found innocent~ 2/3 of those in his tent city are merely being held in pretrial confinement! His main credo is guilty and punishment until proven innocent~ why he averages over $12 million per year in lost lawsuits to his department!
just like his saving $32000 per year in parking fees by taking public transportation when in truth parking for Sherriffs vehicles at airport is free!
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:32 PM
10,719 posts, read 19,928,927 times
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I’m not racist nor prejudice toward illegals but I do vote in favor of legislation that strongly addresses curbing illegal immigration in this country. I can’t speak for everyone else but I define being an American as being above the ugliness and setting an example. Therefore, racism and hate filled speech goes against those very principles. In addition, I’m very proud of my parents, my country and my state of Arizona and to act in a hate filled manner would bring shame to those elements. There is no justification for racism or hate regardless of what others have done. I hate illegal immigration but I don’t hate illegals and I never will. Regardless of how frustrated or angry I might get, I will never allow me to lower myself and act in a manner that would bring shame to my status as a father, an American and the child of my parents. Despite what I read on this forum and see in the news, I’m reminded each day how the majority of Americans are fine human beings; I don’t allow the minority of people who act shamefully to change that perception.
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:47 PM
23 posts, read 67,550 times
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DCTalk, I'll just start by saying that you came here looking for a fight, and that's a terrible thing to do. You want to tell a group of Arizonans that they're racist bigots and they all just look at a group of Mexicans and assume they're illegal just because of the way they look? Go ahead, but I know you're only doing it now because it's over the internet, and you're out of arm's reach for most of us. That's commendable. You're really brave.

That said, I understand the points you're trying to make, but you're making a ton of hasty generalizations, especially for someone who isn't involved in the situation. Your words aren't bad, so I assume you have some intelligence. Now learn to use logic. Correct, Aristotelian logic.

The issues that some people brought up are very real, and they are affecting Arizonans. Take this, for example. Loopholes in the system can be exposed by illegals in such a way that an illegal family of immigrants can get food stamps while they're driving $40,000 trucks. I saw it with my own eyes at a grocery store. A good buddy of mine owns the store, and as I asked him about the family when they were leaving and getting into their sweet ride, he told me all about it. It's real. There are actually classes that are taught in all Spanish that are not language classes. The public school system in certain areas is virtually forced to cater to the Spanish speaking school-goers, and while not every single one of those children is likely to be an immigrant, you can bet your life that at least 90% of their parents are. Who is paying for their education? Most likely it isn't their parents, because the vast majority of illegal immigrants are not forced by their employers to pay taxes. They provide fake SSNs, and that's all the employers require before giving them a uniform and getting some cheap labor. I know this because my father is a contractor, and manual labor is a hard thing to come by unless a contractor is willing to hire illegal immigrants. Most contractors do not take out the taxes for their workers automatically, meaning those who are illegally in this country never end up paying for their taxes, which is the reason why things such as vehicle registration, insurance, and schooling is so expensive in the state of Arizona. The point in all that is just to give you a couple of concrete examples of how this is real and how it is affecting people who are tax-paying citizens of Arizona.

Here's my stance on the issue. I love most illegal immigrants, just as I love most legal citizens. It is true that the vast majority of them are hard-working, respectable people who just want to have a better life than their former country offered. Absolutely true, and I know this for a fact because I know at least 50 illegal immigrants. Just because I love them doesn't mean that I believe they belong here, but I also don't believe we can just say "get out of here" to the ones who we were stupid enough to let in.

There is no "right" answer to this problem, but the solution I would offer would be this: If an illegal immigrant is currently in the country and can provide proof of employment and tax payment (even when they didn't "need" to pay taxes), they should be granted a pass to the "front of the line" for citizenship. If they can attain citizenship, awesome. If not, I say they should have to go back to Mexico (but if they do go back, they'll be back in Phoenix in about 4-6 days. trust me, I have seen it happen a dozen times).

Most illegal immigrants are not bad people, but that doesn't mean they can get a free ride into the country. There is a legal way to do it, and even though the legal way sucks, I think they should have to go through that process from now on, as long as we can stand behind our border patrol. But the fact that our border patrol sucks and illegal immigrants can get in left and right is OUR fault, theirs, and I think they shouldn't be punished for that, and neither should employers.

There's a lot more I could say, but honestly, I know that DCTalk is just going to find something to fight about, and it's not really going to be worth it to me, because after all, the only thing he wants is a fight.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 41,477,350 times
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Originally Posted by DCTalk View Post
It's not the people who oppose illegal immigration as such, it's the element that has an unreasoning anger and hatred toward illegals even though they can not point to one way personally that they have been harmed by them. One can only conclude that the real underlying reason for such hostility is racism.

If our illegal aliens were mostly Nordic White people: I would be just as enraged-----------and, the 'race card' would not apply in my case due my being Nordic White as well.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 41,477,350 times
Reputation: 3860
Originally Posted by DCTalk View Post
AZBear, how do you tell the illegal from the legal by looking at them? Are all illegals engaged in criminal activity? On a percentage basis, no more than the natives are engaged in criminal activity. There are plenty of natives who drive uninsured cars, too. It's a matter of economics. Some people can't afford it. As to the argument illegals drive down wages--exactly how does a person who is ill-educated, lacking training and skills, and doesn't even speak the language a threat to your job? If so, you're virtually unemployable yourself.

People cross the border to escape a failed economy in their native country. Of course, the irony is we now have a failed economy, but it wasn't the illegals who caused it. It was the fat cats who rule Wall Street and the banking system who brought it down. I contend the anger is misplaced. Illegals are not the cause of all of the state's ills. They are the scapegoat. Yes, the lack of secure borders is a problem. The fact that Mexico has become a corrupt, failed, narco-state is a problem. You'd try to escape the place, too.

I live in an area that has a large Hispanic population. I don't doubt that a percentage of them are illegal. But there haven't been a disproportionate number of problems with them. Yes there are MS-13 gangs members within that population, but there are American gangs around, too. But that is a minority. Most are just people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And most Hispanics are very family oriented and church-going. They are not lying on the corner swilling Thunderbird.
Any person contacted by the police should face the possibility of being asked for their legal status here in the USA. It would not bother me since I have nothing to hide.

Trust me: the illegals would disappear quite quickly for the USA if faced with the above scenario.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:01 PM
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 41,477,350 times
Reputation: 3860
Originally Posted by BillyBaroo View Post
Did you know Cesar Chavez was part of that "anti-illegal immigrant" crowd?

Do you know why he was anti-illegal immigrant?

The American Conservative -- Cesar Chavez, Minuteman

In 1969, Chavez led a march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration. Joining him were Sen. Walter Mondale and Martin Luther King’s successor as head of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Ralph Abernathy.

The UFW picketed INS offices to demand closure of the border. Chavez also finked on illegal alien scabs to la migra. Columnist Ruben Navarrette Jr. reported in the Arizona Republic, “Cesar Chavez, a labor leader intent on protecting union membership, was as effective a surrogate for the INS as ever existed. Indeed, Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union he headed routinely reported, to the INS, for deportation, suspected illegal immigrants who served as strikebreakers or refused to unionize.”

Like today’s Minutemen, UFW staffers under the command of Chavez’s brother Manuel patrolled the Arizona-Mexico border to keep out illegal aliens. Unlike the well-behaved Minutemen, however, Chavez’s boys sometimes beat up intruders.
I am waiting for the illegal alien apologists here to slam Cesar Chavez. They would not dare.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:12 PM
1,530 posts, read 3,732,942 times
Reputation: 746
Spent 2 years between Tucson and Phoenix. Didn't notice any overt open racism. I'm sure it's there though, given the overall demographics.

A practical problem to look into however, might be property crime. Especially car theft. Apparently Tucson and Phoenix top the list for it. Some folks say it's not "if" but "when" you will get hit.

As an aside, since you are considering retirement, have you been to Arizona? It wasn't what I expected when I finally got there. For example, they have dust storms that they predict like the weather. "Expect a dust storm from the west between 6 and 9 pm. today."

The other thing about the weather there is cooling/heating costs. Let's just say you like to be at 80 degrees to make the numbers easy. In the summer it's 110 out... so you have to pay to cool 30 degrees worth. In the winter it's 40 out... so you have to pay to heat 40 degrees worth. I had some of the highest utility bills there of anywhere. And I've lived from Florida, to the Northeast, to Colorado, and Cali.

Even the snow bound states didn't cost me as much on a yearly basis.
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