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Old 03-06-2009, 01:01 PM
 
3,819 posts, read 11,908,826 times
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...it's just putting things into perspective, especially for myself, as I normally tout Phoenix as a 1st class city.

I was in Chicago last weekend and it was really an eye opener. Of course there are countless differences between the cities, and I am really only comparing the core of each city. I didn't go to the suburbs.

One thing that struck me right away was that it was a noticeable difference in the lack of heavily overweight people compared to Phoenix. Of course I rode public transit everywhere, and stayed downtown, so everyone I was around was on their feet a lot...but it made a big difference.

The other thing that really struck me was how odd Phoenix was. I know we're trying, and we've made progress, but Phoenix is still very much a "small town". Yes it may be the 5th largest (or 13th...whatever the number) in the country, but that's purely by population and really nothing more.
Just being in Millennium Park in downtown...with the ice skating rink right there...people everywhere...it just felt right. It didn't feel forced. People talk about that Phoenix has so many things to offer...like museums and such...but do we have anything that even remotely comes close to the Field Museum? Hardly. Their library downtown...massive old building, it puts the Burton Barr to shame and makes it looks like a small suburban spot. I know it's not really fair to compare because of each city's history but it still really puts things in perspective.

On a final note...something else that struck me as missing in Phoenix is a grand boulevard/avenue. Of course I'm comparing to Michigan Ave, but Phoenix has nothing of that width that can accommodate both cars and lots of foot traffic. The sidewalks are very wide, whereas ours in Phoenix are very narrow in most of downtown. I mean our sidewalks in downtown are the same as the sidewalks outside my house 25 miles NW of downtown. Something is not right about that.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:27 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,028 posts, read 12,203,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
One thing that struck me right away was that it was a noticeable difference in the lack of heavily overweight people compared to Phoenix. Of course I rode public transit everywhere, and stayed downtown, so everyone I was around was on their feet a lot...but it made a big difference.
I find that shocking because a lot of thin and/or fit people live here in the Phoenix area. Obesity is a nationwide problem, so I'm sure there are fat people waddling along the streets of the Chicago area ... just as there are obese individuals here. However, I doubt that Phoenix is anywhere close to being high on the list when it comes to obesity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
The other thing that really struck me was how odd Phoenix was. I know we're trying, and we've made progress, but Phoenix is still very much a "small town". Yes it may be the 5th largest (or 13th...whatever the number) in the country, but that's purely by population and really nothing more.
Phoenix isn't "small town" like it used to be. It was very much that way in the 1970s, even after some taller structures were built in the downtown & Central Corridor area. Back then, there were still lots of dirt roads, and you could actually see cowboys on the streets. Not anymore.

I'll admit that we still don't look or feel like the nation's fifth largest city, and that is disappointing. You know that I'm a strong advocate for a taller downtown area, and other amenities that would give us a better nationwide & world wide image. We have made strides, especially in the area of professional sports & some transit improvements ... however, we do seem to lack other things that help make a world class city, such as corporate HQs, and the entrepreneurial sprit. Also, a lack of world class hotels in the downtown area, and most of the active nightlife being in Scottsdale or Tempe doesn't make Phoenix itself a very good destination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
Just being in Millennium Park in downtown...with the ice skating rink right there...people everywhere...it just felt right. It didn't feel forced. People talk about that Phoenix has so many things to offer...like museums and such...but do we have anything that even remotely comes close to the Field Museum? Hardly. Their library downtown...massive old building, it puts the Burton Barr to shame and makes it looks like a small suburban spot. I know it's not really fair to compare because of each city's history but it still really puts things in perspective.
You have to realize also that Chicago is still quite a bit larger than Phoenix, and it has always been sizeable in comparison. Chicago has been the nation's second or third largest city for a long time (probably close to a century). Phoenix grew its way to #5 in just the past few years. I think that comparing Phoenix to Chicago isn't too appropriate. Based on size & history alone, Chicago really should be compared to New York ... while Phoenix should be compared to other similar sized WESTERN cities, such as San Diego, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, Seattle, Denver, etc. Even comparing us to L.A. would be more appropriate, but not Chicago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
On a final note...something else that struck me as missing in Phoenix is a grand boulevard/avenue. Of course I'm comparing to Michigan Ave, but Phoenix has nothing of that width that can accommodate both cars and lots of foot traffic. The sidewalks are very wide, whereas ours in Phoenix are very narrow in most of downtown. I mean our sidewalks in downtown are the same as the sidewalks outside my house 25 miles NW of downtown. Something is not right about that.
Haven't really noticed the sidewalks, but I think you're right about the streets. We have an avenue called Grand, but it's not grand or marvelous at all. Central Avenue would be the closest thing to a large street that is both walkable and vehicle friendly. Also, East Camelback could also fit that description. One thing that bothers me, however, is that a lot of main streets in Phoenix are named "road" or "drive". They should be changed to "avenue", "street", or "bouleveard". That alone could help change the image a little.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
173 posts, read 464,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
On a final note...something else that struck me as missing in Phoenix is a grand boulevard/avenue. Of course I'm comparing to Michigan Ave, but Phoenix has nothing of that width that can accommodate both cars and lots of foot traffic.
You mean Central Ave. doesn't qualify?

Phoenix lacks a "central core" like the big eastern cities have; we're too spread out.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:06 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,244,888 times
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LOL

HX...I agree with your comments. It was fun to read your response because I can tell you went from someone who has spent a lot of time in Phoenix to discovering a large city like Chicago and I'm the opposite, I grew up in LA learning to adapt to Phoenix.

I disagree about the overweight aspect. I think Phoenix has a lot more thin women than from the midwest. I have friends from Chicago visit me in the winters. They are single bachelors and they love Phoenix because they find our women to be more attractive because they are in better shape. They are always making fun of Chicago women for being overweight and hiding their weight under thicker clothing.

I agree with the small town aspect but that is largely due to the fact that our city is so spread out. If you focused the businesses throughout the city into one epicenter, you would discover that this city is pretty darn big. Furthermore, this city's development only recently took off. Think about Phoenix prior to 1990. Chicago has been a large city for a long time. Give us some time friend. Considering how large this city has grown in such a short period of time, I wouldn't judge our potential. Furthermore, the nations' populations are moving toward the sun-belt and regardless of tough economic times, the population growth in Phoenix is occurring. Sure the rate of growth is slower but it's still gaining about 50 K per year and that's a conservative estimate.

In regards to downtown, we just now figured out the solution to developing downtown: SCHOOLS! In the past, we tried to develop downtown by putting up arenas and living space but that did nothing. None of those strategies worked because there was no reason for people to live in downtown on a daily basis to enjoy sporting events. And why would someone live in dowtown if their job was elsewhere. The solution was just discovered recently. Put up graduate schools: medicine, nursing, journalism, research etc. ASU has relocated many of it's schools from its other campuses to downtown. For all intents and purposes, ASU is essentially closing down its east campus and moving it to downtown; they moved the entire nursing school on the west Glendale campus to downtown. The medical school there is increasing its class size to 120 per class so that school alone will one day have about 400-500 students total (I'm one of many faculty that will be assisting there). I know many people can commute to school just as easily as a job but with schools and graduate schools in particular, students find that it is much more convenient to live near them. Furthermore, as the university culture takes off and as bars, clubs, book stores, coffee shops etc. increase, more people will choose to live in the area. And as the area becomes further populated, businesses will choose to set up an office in downtown as opposed to the Biltmore for example which will further lead to the development of downtown.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 03-06-2009 at 02:16 PM..
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:39 PM
 
549 posts, read 1,555,201 times
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> One thing that struck me right away was that it was a noticeable
> difference in the lack of heavily overweight people compared to Phoenix. Of
> course I rode public transit everywhere, and stayed downtown, so
> everyone I was around was on their feet a lot...but it made a big
> difference.

It's where you were. Downtown is filled with young single types and young professionals. If you go out into the neighborhoods (aside from Lakeview) you'll see plenty of overweight people - more, I think, actually, than in Phoenix. There's plenty of overweight people in Chicago - trust me, I know, I was a physician there.

> Just being in Millennium Park in downtown...with the ice skating rink right
> there...people everywhere...it just felt right. It didn't feel forced.

Yes. That's one of the things I love about Chicago that is desperately, desperately lacking in Phoenix - the *density*. I wouldn't mind Phoenix's sprawl if it had some neighborhoods where there wasn't sprawl in all directions. The advantage of Chicago is that all the major attractions - Navy Pier, Millenium Park, the Art Institute, the Field Museum, the Shedd Aquarium, the lakefront, the shopping along Michigan Avenue, the John Hancock Building, the Sears Tower, Union Station, the Loop and State Street, several major hotels, several major residential neighborhoods - are all only blocks from one another, all walkable from one another (and if not, connected easily by an elevated train.) So there are people everywhere. Gives it energy. In Phoenix, the Desert Botanical Garden, the Heard Museum, Scottsdale's Old Town, the upcoming Musical Instrument Museum, Lake Pleasant, Westgate, Mill Avenue, residential areas, and the sports area downtown are *miles* from one another, with no obvious connection.

I don't think it's entirely fair to compare the architecture - the Burton Barr libary is nice, but it's *new*. A lot of the old buildings in Chicago are like that because they are old. Phoenix is too new, exploded into being too fast. Chicago's been the #2 or #3 sized city for 100 years. Phoenix has been #5 for the past ten or so. I honestly believe that given 100 years Phoenix will be a much more interesting and connected city too.

Yes, we should have a grand boulevard, but that comes over time. Michigan Avenue was originally Pine Street and didn't have much in the way of shopping - it developed as an alternative to State Street later. I know it sounds crazy, but I don't think it's totally unreasonable, particularly if light rail is expanded, that areas of Central Avenue and Camelback Avenue may end up being grand avenues over the next few decades.

In summary, I guess, some of this is the effect of time, and Phoenix hasn't had enough time. If there's anything I'd suggest about Phoenix is that it must find some way to bring density and interest to downtown. With a downtown area, I think Phoenix will be much more interesting. To its credit, it actually has made some strides - there are noticeable improvements, especially with the light rail, over the past few years. But it has a long way to go, and yes, it's disappointing compared to Chicago.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:10 PM
 
2,299 posts, read 6,162,971 times
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Thanks for appreciating Chicago! One note, though. Our massive library isn't actually old. Opened in 1991, it will be two more years before it celebrates it's twentieth birthday!

1986 | The Harold Washington Library -- a building that almost wasn't :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: 60 years of history (http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/history/809413,CST-NWS-high23.stng - broken link)
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:42 PM
 
6,643 posts, read 5,867,729 times
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one thing about PHX that doesn't disappoint: the winter weather.

I haven't worn a jacket since leaving Boston in 2007
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:47 PM
 
157 posts, read 451,995 times
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Part of it is the density. Phoenix feels so spread out and monotone. To me it feels more like 100 little suburbs rather than an urban environment.

But, the weather, ugh, Chicago can keep that.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Sunny Phoenix Arizona...wishing for a beach.
4,300 posts, read 14,925,236 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
...it's just putting things into perspective, especially for myself, as I normally tout Phoenix as a 1st class city.

I was in Chicago last weekend and it was really an eye opener. Of course there are countless differences between the cities, and I am really only comparing the core of each city. I didn't go to the suburbs.

One thing that struck me right away was that it was a noticeable difference in the lack of heavily overweight people compared to Phoenix. Of course I rode public transit everywhere, and stayed downtown, so everyone I was around was on their feet a lot...but it made a big difference.

The other thing that really struck me was how odd Phoenix was. I know we're trying, and we've made progress, but Phoenix is still very much a "small town". Yes it may be the 5th largest (or 13th...whatever the number) in the country, but that's purely by population and really nothing more.
Just being in Millennium Park in downtown...with the ice skating rink right there...people everywhere...it just felt right. It didn't feel forced. People talk about that Phoenix has so many things to offer...like museums and such...but do we have anything that even remotely comes close to the Field Museum? Hardly. Their library downtown...massive old building, it puts the Burton Barr to shame and makes it looks like a small suburban spot. I know it's not really fair to compare because of each city's history but it still really puts things in perspective.

On a final note...something else that struck me as missing in Phoenix is a grand boulevard/avenue. Of course I'm comparing to Michigan Ave, but Phoenix has nothing of that width that can accommodate both cars and lots of foot traffic. The sidewalks are very wide, whereas ours in Phoenix are very narrow in most of downtown. I mean our sidewalks in downtown are the same as the sidewalks outside my house 25 miles NW of downtown. Something is not right about that.

It was an eye opener for me too when I went back to New York last year and I really enjoyed it but I know I can never take that weather and I'd miss the plam trees
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:45 PM
YAZ
 
Location: Phoenix,AZ
7,700 posts, read 14,037,430 times
Reputation: 7037
I dunno.

Phoenix could be compared to Tampa, maybe.

It's different out here.

Chicago is "cool".

The Detroit area has the best summers in the world, New York City NEVER sleeps, and Atlanta has shown me many great times.

As I grow older, I dig the peacefulness of the desert, the beautiful sunsets, and I really dig wearing shorts at night in the summertime.

Phoenix is my home now, and "dig" is in my vocabulary 'til I die...
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