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Old 09-18-2009, 06:26 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,216,446 times
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Has anyone purchased a no salt water softener? (Please no sales pitches through PM's!, thank you)

There are companies that have several pitches but they can be salesy. I want to avoid calling random companies out of the yellow pages because they tend to be fairly shady; they will come to your house for a "demonstration" and then try to upsell you all of this crap. Has anyone worked with a reputable company they trust and had a good experience with?
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Old 09-18-2009, 09:15 PM
 
101 posts, read 544,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
Has anyone purchased a no salt water softener? (Please no sales pitches through PM's!, thank you)

There are companies that have several pitches but they can be salesy. I want to avoid calling random companies out of the yellow pages because they tend to be fairly shady; they will come to your house for a "demonstration" and then try to upsell you all of this crap. Has anyone worked with a reputable company they trust and had a good experience with?

First of all, there is a contradiction of term. How is that you are using "no-salt" and 'Softener" in the same term?

There is no such thing unless you are considering membrane softening, electrolysis, distillation, or demineralization to REMOVE/EXCHANGE hardness minerals.

This topic is really frustrating because people keep reading these ads that pretend to provide equipment that doesn't use salt and call them a softener.

It is a marketing tool that grabs consumers (and there are many) who, for whatever reason, wish to avoid the salt aspect. That can include, the weight and transportation, costs, the environmental effects, dietary concerns, legal ordinances, and so on.

So naturally, they will get a plethora of calls and amkes sales. That is also way these things are mostly sole on the internet where customers can't walk inot an office and demand satisfaction.

Don't be fooled by the NO SALT SOFTENER.

Now then, there are many types of equipment that treat (condition) water that don't use salt: RO, carbon filters, sediment filters, UV lights, chlorination, and so on and on.

Whether you have had some poor experience with sales reps, I can't tell. But if one knows his trade and water quality issues, it might be worth it to listen and learn. You can always say NO, right? Most people who are afraid of saleman have a diifficulty speaking their minds and telling them they are not intersted. It's simple.

From what you have already said, you are yet to reach level one of water quality equipment. Undersatand there is no such thing as a salt- or potassium-free softener can get you on your way.

Andy Chrsitensen, CWS-II
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:09 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,216,446 times
Reputation: 10019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy CWS View Post
First of all, there is a contradiction of term. How is that you are using "no-salt" and 'Softener" in the same term?

There is no such thing unless you are considering membrane softening, electrolysis, distillation, or demineralization to REMOVE/EXCHANGE hardness minerals.

This topic is really frustrating because people keep reading these ads that pretend to provide equipment that doesn't use salt and call them a softener.

It is a marketing tool that grabs consumers (and there are many) who, for whatever reason, wish to avoid the salt aspect. That can include, the weight and transportation, costs, the environmental effects, dietary concerns, legal ordinances, and so on.

So naturally, they will get a plethora of calls and amkes sales. That is also way these things are mostly sole on the internet where customers can't walk inot an office and demand satisfaction.

Don't be fooled by the NO SALT SOFTENER.

Now then, there are many types of equipment that treat (condition) water that don't use salt: RO, carbon filters, sediment filters, UV lights, chlorination, and so on and on.

Whether you have had some poor experience with sales reps, I can't tell. But if one knows his trade and water quality issues, it might be worth it to listen and learn. You can always say NO, right? Most people who are afraid of saleman have a diifficulty speaking their minds and telling them they are not intersted. It's simple.

From what you have already said, you are yet to reach level one of water quality equipment. Undersatand there is no such thing as a salt- or potassium-free softener can get you on your way.

Andy Chrsitensen, CWS-II
This reminds me of doctors who correct patients when they use the term "blood thinners" to describe Coumadin. Technically, it doesn't thin the blood. Warfarin or Coumadin doesn't make your blood more watery, it just inhibits the clotting cascade that exists within the blood. The mechanism doesn't technically involve diluting the blood but the effect is the same. Do I correct these patients? Of course not, because I understand what they are trying to say. Likewise, was there really a reason to spend an entire page correcting me on the term "soften" when I meant "condition"

Please, don't give me this crap about how "You can always say no, right" Sales reps will not take "no" for answer because they are trained to not accept "no" for an answer. Anyone who has ever worked in a sales oriented job is well aware of this. During your orientation when you joined the company, you were taught to memorize rebuttals to every "no" a client puts forth. I don't want to do that song and dance in which I say "I want to think about it" and the salesman responds with "What do you need to think about," then I tell him that I want to shop around and he provides me with all these reasons why I should buy it from him now or that he can't guarantee the quoted price if he leaves your house. The goal of every sales person is to close the deal on the first encounter because statistically the chances of closing it later are reduced. Again, you were taught this in orientation. The goal of your company is get in the client's home. This is why you won't offer quotes on the phone or pricing on your website. Every company knows it's much harder for a client to say no in person versus in the privacy of their home. You can't even buy a gym membership without talking to a rep who tries to lock you into a long term deal or upsell you a packagage you don't need. The only thing a customer can do to protect himself by researching different companies and finding ones that don't resort to these tactics. Judging by your response above, it sounds like I frustrated because you probably wanted to PM with your contact info. Sorry!

For anyone else reading this, this is a little trick to dealing with aggressive sales reps. When a sales rep asks you "What do you need to think about" Don't provide them with a concrete answer because they have memorized answers to every rebutal. So don't answer "Well I want to shop around for cheaper prices" because that's what they want you to tell them. If you want to turn them away, simply offer a subjective and emotional response that they have no memorized answer to because their training booklet never provides a specific response to "Yaaa...I don't know, I'm just not feeling it" LOL They will get so frustrated and give up

Last edited by azriverfan.; 09-19-2009 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:17 PM
 
1 posts, read 7,437 times
Reputation: 13
Default Why not use salt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
Has anyone purchased a no salt water softener? (Please no sales pitches through PM's!, thank you)

There are companies that have several pitches but they can be salesy. I want to avoid calling random companies out of the yellow pages because they tend to be fairly shady; they will come to your house for a "demonstration" and then try to upsell you all of this crap. Has anyone worked with a reputable company they trust and had a good experience with?

There are many dozens of "companies" selling utterly worthless "no salt water softeners / conditioners" that do only one thing: they rob people of their money. As someone already pointed out, if you want to remove the "hard" out of "hard water" you have to use a form of salt to perform ion exchange.

Many of the fraudulent devices claim to use magnetic fields, or "signals" or "pulses" of other such bulldung: it's all a lie to separate ignorant people from their money. Some of these worthless devices cost thousands of dollars, and all the victim gets for the money is the vague feeling that the device is working.... and maybe, if they're lucky, a blinking LED.

Some of these devices clip onto water pipes; many have a wire that the victim is supposed to wrap around the water pipe. It's all bull****.

You may want to see my YouTube video on the subject, which I am uploading right now. It will be on my "Desertphile" channel in a hour or so.

Unless you have a city or county ordinance that restricts salt, you may as well use salt. The alternatives (electrodeionization, electrodialysis) will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. If you are worried about salt in your drinking water, add a tap before the water softener to be used for drinking.
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:55 AM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,216,446 times
Reputation: 10019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertphile View Post
There are many dozens of "companies" selling utterly worthless "no salt water softeners / conditioners" that do only one thing: they rob people of their money. As someone already pointed out, if you want to remove the "hard" out of "hard water" you have to use a form of salt to perform ion exchange.

Many of the fraudulent devices claim to use magnetic fields, or "signals" or "pulses" of other such bulldung: it's all a lie to separate ignorant people from their money. Some of these worthless devices cost thousands of dollars, and all the victim gets for the money is the vague feeling that the device is working.... and maybe, if they're lucky, a blinking LED.

Some of these devices clip onto water pipes; many have a wire that the victim is supposed to wrap around the water pipe. It's all bull****.

You may want to see my YouTube video on the subject, which I am uploading right now. It will be on my "Desertphile" channel in a hour or so.

Unless you have a city or county ordinance that restricts salt, you may as well use salt. The alternatives (electrodeionization, electrodialysis) will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. If you are worried about salt in your drinking water, add a tap before the water softener to be used for drinking.
Thank You. I just repped you. I wish the first respondent spoke clearly and directly without insulting me. I wasn't aware the "no-salt" softeners were scams. After reading your post, I did some research and they confirmed what you said. You have to understand, we don't do this for a living. Some of us are not knowledgeable enough to know that a "no salt" sytem was not a verified technology. I don't belittle patients when they ask seemingly ignorant questions because I know they were not trained in the medical field. Likewise, I don't sell these products for a living so how am I supposed to know better? After all, why wouldn't any reasonable person prefer a no salt hassle free system if it was a legitimate and functional technology?
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Old 09-20-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 14,727,324 times
Reputation: 3876
We use Potassium Chloride pellets instead of the regular salt pellets.

The Potassium Chloride bag isays there is no sodium added to the water. However, the PC costs a lot more. At Home Depot the regular salt pellets are around $4 per bag, and the PC is around $14 per bag.
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Old 09-20-2009, 10:39 PM
 
101 posts, read 544,961 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post

Please, don't give me this crap about how "You can always say no, right" Sales reps will not take "no" for answer because they are trained to not accept "no" for an answer. Anyone who has ever worked in a sales oriented job is well aware of this. During your orientation when you joined the company, you were taught to memorize rebuttals to every "no" a client puts forth. I don't want to do that song and dance in which I say "I want to think about it" and the salesman responds with "What do you need to think about," then I tell him that I want to shop around and he provides me with all these reasons why I should buy it from him now or that he can't guarantee the quoted price if he leaves your house. The goal of every sales person is to close the deal on the first encounter because statistically the chances of closing it later are reduced. Again, you were taught this in orientation. The goal of your company is get in the client's home. This is why you won't offer quotes on the phone or pricing on your website. Every company knows it's much harder for a client to say no in person versus in the privacy of their home. You can't even buy a gym membership without talking to a rep who tries to lock you into a long term deal or upsell you a packagage you don't need. The only thing a customer can do to protect himself by researching different companies and finding ones that don't resort to these tactics. Judging by your response above, it sounds like I frustrated because you probably wanted to PM with your contact info. Sorry!

For anyone else reading this, this is a little trick to dealing with aggressive sales reps. When a sales rep asks you "What do you need to think about" Don't provide them with a concrete answer because they have memorized answers to every rebutal. So don't answer "Well I want to shop around for cheaper prices" because that's what they want you to tell them. If you want to turn them away, simply offer a subjective and emotional response that they have no memorized answer to because their training booklet never provides a specific response to "Yaaa...I don't know, I'm just not feeling it" LOL They will get so frustrated and give up
Sorry you felt offended. That was no my intention. But I have to disaggee with one's ability to fend off sale reps by just sayng no. Yes, I understand there are responses geared for objections, hurdles and obsticles that would-be customers offer. That IS their job to solve problems. By knowing that, you have the advantage.

And I agree there are sales reps out that pressure and corner and coral propects until fatigue and bewilderment take over. That's a shame because it looks like you may have encountered them before. You certainly went into extended discourse of your distrust of sales but oddly requested someone to refer you to a 'good compnay'. I suppose that compnay would send a sales rep, don't you?

You were right about 'orientation' and training of many sales reps. They are under more pressure from their manager to close than they put on you. I've seen where they HAVE to call their manager before they leave the house, make short-cut deals and so on. So I understand your feelings. This is unfortunate because it makes people feel uncomfortable and it is likely done by those with poor sales stats, poor personal skills and poor products or poor empathies. Moreover, it gives a decent sales rep a muddy road to trek.

For every technique a sales rep has to counter your objection, you have even more ways to get out of it. It is a matter of confidence in knowing what you want, what you need, and what you understand. The moment you feel you are being pressured, take the courage and show them to the door.

If all else fails and you felt you were 'forced' to sign something, you have a three-day right of recession...just cancel it. Moreover, you can contact the office manager and make a complaint that their rep made you feel very bad, pressured and you didn't appreciate and the sale was lost because ot it. I see you even offered such advice above. What's the problem? Just take control of what happens in your own home.

I had a roofing company come out last year and the owner came to train his new salesman. He (the owner) struggled hard to close by all the same technques: lower price, extras (ridge and soffit venting), higher quality (Dow roofng), faster service (next day), and so on if I signed up tonight. It was easy to send him on his way by telling him that "We decided not go with you, because we didn't see the value and decided to go with another that I felt more comfortable with, but thank you for your time." Confidence in your decision making ability will send any sales rep hicking.

No, I wasn't looking to PM you with contact information.

My doctor, on the other hand, willfully and clearly corrects my misconceptions concerning prescriptions, procedures and recent trends in medicine and health. And I prefer it that way. I understand that he is not going to go into chemcial details and historic medical journal reviews, but he does take as much time as I require to be satisfied with his responces. I can understand those doctors who glean over things as their audience has a hard time figuring out how to open a pill bottle. I guess I was just looking at it in a different perspective. There are many, too, who feel superior and remain as mysterious and lofty as possible.

Again, I didn't mean to come off hard on you and I apologize. But with all due respect, I guess I was just reacting to the sarcasm.

Desertphile is right in his overall view of some of these water treatment hoccus poccus. That is why these things are sold on line primarily. You can't go to them like you can with one of those sales reps who came to your house to explain what he deals in to make demands for service and satisfaction. Often on line is off sight and out of place.
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Old 09-20-2009, 10:47 PM
 
13,158 posts, read 21,696,545 times
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FWIW, I didn't see anything condescending at all about Andy's post. Seemed pretty level-headed and factual to me.
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:48 AM
 
24,834 posts, read 37,207,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog View Post
FWIW, I didn't see anything condescending at all about Andy's post. Seemed pretty level-headed and factual to me.
Andy knows his stuff!!!!
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Old 09-25-2009, 01:11 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,216,446 times
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Andy

As I stated in my first post, I'm not opposed to dealing with salesmen as long as they are not aggressive and condescending. And I'm a little confused by your response. In your first response, you advise that I should meet with a sales team to ask questions. In your second response, you recognize that I was willing to meet with a sales team as long as they weren't pushy. If you recognized that then what was the point about lecturing me about the importance of meeting with a sales team?

I explain concepts to my patients as well but I don't feel it's necessary to correct my patient when she says she is on a blood thinner instead of an anticoagulant. I would rather devote that time to explaining more important issues like her INR levels and possible adverse effects of Coumadin. The patient understands the basic effect of Coumadin so why risk coming accross as being condescending by being nitpicky. I understood what she meant by blood thinner and it would have been belaboring a point to correct her. Whether I used the word softener or conditioner, I fail to see how that distinction impacted my question? Nonetheless, I will apologize as well for my first response. All of us work with different styles and I prefered the response by Desertphile.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 09-25-2009 at 02:14 PM..
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