North Shore Connector: Positives (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: appointed, to live, cost of)

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Although elevation changes are one thing gondolas handle well, they are equally adept at things like crossing rivers or going through areas without room for additional surface transportation. In other words, you don't need an elevation change to justify using the technology.

That said, such an extension off the flats of the North Side would very likely be worth doing. So the fact such an extension isn't on the map is basically a matter of me not being sure where exactly to go next, as opposed to me thinking I had reached a logical end point.

I understand. I didn't even realize that it was your map, good work.


Troy Hill may better connect to the Strip/Lawrenceville Route, but a Fineview/Perry South connection Straight up Federal Street Ext. somewhere wouldn't seem too hard to add.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Although elevation changes are one thing gondolas handle well, they are equally adept at things like crossing rivers or going through areas without room for additional surface transportation. In other words, you don't need an elevation change to justify using the technology.

That said, such an extension off the flats of the North Side would very likely be worth doing. So the fact such an extension isn't on the map is basically a matter of me not being sure where exactly to go next, as opposed to me thinking I had reached a logical end point.

except that the river crossing has already been handled...

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

while I don't doubt that, it probably would make more sense to bypass allegheny station for an extension of any distance.

That depends on whether you can get the funding for more tunneling. If not, you are pretty much stuck with wrapping around, given where the NSC exits the tunnel and the hill in the way. And if you are going to have to wrap around anyway, you might as well hit Allegheny Station along the way first. Again, all this is assuming you are trying to use the NSC at all.

I think the aerial gondolas have a future in pittsburgh but not the central north side.

If your goal is to provide the central North Side with a rapid, direct link to Oakland within the conceivable future--as I personally think it should be--then I think aerial gondolas are easily the most suitable technology. To sum up, you aren't trying to go too far as the crow flies, but you've got a river and a hill in the way, and on top of that the surface routes around that hill in either direction are congested. That's a scenario which screams out for aerial gondolas as a solution.

Now if you want to dig a tunnel from Downtown to Oakland and a tunnel modification and extension of some sort to allow the central North Side to use the NSC to access that new tunnel, then OK, that would work too. But that sort of project would cost WAY more money than using aerial gondolas, and some form of that idea has been talked about forever without actually happening. So I don't think it makes sense to wait around for it to finally happen when you have a much cheaper means of achieving the same basic end.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

except that the river crossing has already been handled...

Well, there are certainly plenty of bridges and now a tunnel. But none of them as they stand are suitable for the specific project of linking the central North Side directly to Oakland by rapid transit.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That depends on whether you can get the funding for more tunneling. If not, you are pretty much stuck with wrapping around, given where the NSC exits the tunnel and the hill in the way. And if you are going to have to wrap around anyway, you might as well hit Allegheny Station along the way first. Again, all this is assuming you are trying to use the NSC at all.

as noted, I think it likely that a simply one stop extension of the current alignment probably makes the most sense and is the most likely...as nice as a branch of the T via federal st would be. it does also remain possible to use brighton rd while only skipping the last stop.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Now if you want to dig a tunnel from Downtown to Oakland and a tunnel modification and extension of some sort to allow the central North Side to use the NSC to access that new tunnel, then OK, that would work too.

while the most expensive upfront, this option makes the most sense operationally and is really the spine line...operating to oakland via downtown.
rather than wait around, continue chipping away. had all of the region's energy gone into the spine line it would be built by now. at any rate, the brt might be a decent interim solution even if it involves a transfer, I look forward to that report's conclusions....still, a rail version would likely be cheaper to operate.

If I were going to install a gondola, it would be from one of the hillsides. the duquesne incline would probably make more sense as a gondola connecting to gateway station. in such a case the gondola solves two problems, grade and a river crossing.

[ferraris]

At this point I'd settle for a bus from the Central Northside to Oakland (the 54 doesn't really cut it).

[Lock-Os]

Well, on the bright side, I could park at Monroeville Mall, take 67 downtown, then take the T to the games, but with the last bus at 9:20, I'd have to watch the clock if the game ran late.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

as noted, I think it likely that a simply one stop extension of the current alignment probably makes the most sense and is the most likely

But that would accomplish very little in terms of serving the most pressing transit needs in the core area. For that reason, I'm not sure it is really very likely.

while the most expensive upfront, this option makes the most sense operationally and is really the spine line...operating to oakland via downtown.

That's a big caveat: the expense of this notion is why it has been talked about for a century and never gotten done.

had all of the region's energy gone into the spine line it would be built by now.

As we have discussed, it got killed and then partially replaced with the NSC when Dunn and Cranmer, who had a suburban/big-business power base, got elected. But we'll never really know if the feds in the ensuing period would have supported it anyway--of course the feds had the same local power base in the relevant period.

If I were going to install a gondola, it would be from one of the hillsides. the duquesne incline would probably make more sense as a gondola connecting to gateway station. in such a case the gondola solves two problems, grade and a river crossing.

I think you have to start with an analysis of what we really need. What we really need is a radical improvement of our transit services to Oakland, and not just from Downtown. Mt Washington to Downtown is nowhere close to as pressing of a need.

And Oakland is surrounded by hills, gorges, and rivers, so you're not exactly hurting for opportunities to solve such challenges if Oakland is your target.

[BrianTH]

By the way, I took a sort of tourist ride of the NSC, including walking around all the new stations. A quick review:

It feels solid but not glamorous, which is maybe appropriate given all the funding controversy (you can see someone arguing it represents money well spent without unnecessary gold-plating). As always when I ride the T, it seems kinda slow, but at least everything from First Avenue to the end of the line is close.

Gateway is obviously the most artistic station, but still pretty modest. Nonetheless, exiting from there is pretty cool, although I think it would be nice if there was some prominent signage to local attractions (say Market Square and the Cultural District).

Allegheny Station in contrast is pretty bland--it feels like it could be a minor intermediary stop on a suburban line. Probably all the parking lots around it are reinforcing that feeling. Incidentally, the ramp near Gate C of Heinz field comes pretty close to the station--I couldn't help but think of a little walkover and a ticket taker taking the place of a multi-million dollar ramp below.

The North Shore station was actually the most impressive to me, in part just because of the sheer scale--it felt like it was built for a lot of people using a more substantial system. In fact, it reminded me of Washington Metro stations.

Overall it seemed fine, but obviously its long-term utility depends on appropriately developing all the land around it on the North Shore.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But that would accomplish very little in terms of serving the most pressing transit needs in the core area. For that reason, I'm not sure it is really very likely.

what? no one project solves all problems. I fail to see how connecting allegheny west to downtown and oakland via the spine line doesn't address any needs of a core area.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That's a big caveat: the expense of this notion is why it has been talked about for a century and never gotten done.

and yet it will never die because of its utility. btw, there are now two pieces of the spine line built. the problem is less the upfront expense and more the lack of commitment to finishing the job. remember, in today's dollars, the west busway cost nearly half a billion dollars..certainly enough to have built another section of the spine line. the reward being that it should be much cheaper to operate a higher volume service through downtown.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

As we have discussed, it got killed and then partially replaced with the NSC when Dunn and Cranmer, who had a suburban/big-business power base, got elected. But we'll never really know if the feds in the ensuing period would have supported it anyway--of course the feds had the same local power base in the relevant period.

the nsc is the spine line, really, just not as originally envisioned. it would make a nice park n ride if the service extended to oakland, and certainly pitt students would use it to get to games. one thing a spine line alignment does is benefit downtown and the north shore as well as the universities.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think you have to start with an analysis of what we really need. What we really need is a radical improvement of our transit services to Oakland, and not just from Downtown. Mt Washington to Downtown is nowhere close to as pressing of a need.

And Oakland is surrounded by hills, gorges, and rivers, so you're not exactly hurting for opportunities to solve such challenges if Oakland is your target.

it goes round and round. the gondola is an excellent application for mt washington to downtown and certainly would improve the transit options there. does it solve oakland? no. does that mean it's not a good project? no. plus it was only an example. I don't find you're north side gondola to be the right application of the technology, perhaps fineview.

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

At this point I'd settle for a bus from the Central Northside to Oakland (the 54 doesn't really cut it).

it would probably be more economical to extend an oakland-downtown bus rather than run a new bus direct as is the nature of transit. seat turnover is important. if you try to have too many disparate routes you end up with a lot of door to door service at great cost and not enough frequency.