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Understood properly--meaning adjusted for the nature of the student population--the stats show Allderdice is in fact one of the top high schools in the region.
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Originally Posted by caroline2
It's one of the top among schools of comparable resources
Brian, I have seen you say this a few times, but caroline's comment made me realize I'm not so sure what you mean by this.
I took it to mean something like "Sure, that guy in Uganda might only make 2,400 USD year, but that is twice the per capita GDP in Uganda, so it is equivalent to someone making 92,000 USD in the US." Meaning that "success" has to be measured in context.
So we know a lot of factors have a correlation with student test scores. Many of them are factors regarding parents (their education and income levels, whether they are both present, and so on), and also issues like nutrition, sleeping environment, what does or does not happen scholastically after school and during the summer, and so on. Of course individual results will vary, but the point is that once you are looking at aggregated test scores, we know that the school itself is only one of those factors, and there are various ways of controlling test scores for these other factors to determine how well the school itself is doing at improving measurable outcomes for the students.
So if you look at two schools, but they have different mixes of students, you can't just look at the raw test scores to figure out how well the school is doing at improving measurable outcomes. Instead you have to do the work of controlling for these other factors first. And my suggestion is that when you do that, you will find that Allderdice is doing quite well, and the PPS in general are doing pretty well on average.
Just to give you an example: this is a pretty crude approach, but the Business Times publishes something called its "overachiever" ranking for Western PA schools, which takes into account the percentage of students eligible for free and reduced lunches (an imperfect but not unreasonable proxy for some of these issues):
To show how this approach can change things around, using unadjusted test scores, they had Mt. Lebanon at #3 and the PPS at #96. But when adding in the percentage of students on subsidized lunches, Mt. Lebanon dropped to #23 and the PPS went up to #24. Note this isn't intended to be an attack on Mt. Lebanon--they are still doing better than most districts, even after making this adjustment to the rankings. But the point is that so are the PPS.
Now caroline2 seemed to be suggesting I was making a point about controlling for "resources". I'm definitely not: that is an important thing to consider in other contexts, but I don't see it as relevant here. I will note, however, that there are lots of ways of spending resources on schools that don't seem to have much, if any, effect on measurable educational outcomes--everything from busing (a particular problem in rural districts) to athletic facilities and so on.
Now if your school already has enough resources to do a good job educationally, you may view some other school expenditures as a nice bonus. But that gets us back to looking at this in a holistic way--schools with lots of very nice non-educational amenities may be a desirable thing to provide to your children, but what about the quality of the amenities available to them outside of school, particularly once they become old enough to be autonomous? In some situations, schools become the primary venue for almost everything the child does, but is that really a desirable outcome?
Again, these are complex decisions for parents. I'm just cautioning against using raw test scores to compare the quality of schools, and also suggesting parents consider the whole life of the child, including their physical safety, times spent outside of school and potentially outside the home as well, and so on.
Edit: Oh, I forgot to include an analogy. Say you take one team with the Yankees' lineup, and one team with the Pirates' lineup, and you want to evaluate two different managers, so you put them each in charge of one of these teams. Would you then just look to the total number of wins to figure out who was the best manager?
Edit: Oh, I forgot to include an analogy. Say you take one team with the Yankees' lineup, and one team with the Pirates' lineup, and you want to evaluate two different managers, so you put them each in charge of one of these teams. Would you then just look to the total number of wins to figure out who was the best manager?
You really do look at wins when determining the success of a manager. Why do last place teams fire their manager more often than first place teams?
I understand your point that the city schools generally have a harder job in comparison to affluent suburban districts. But as a parent, my main goal is to get my child the best education possible and to get them in to the best college possible. Now, I realize that Allderdice is unique in that they have some very competitive honors programs and that the graduates of these programs go to some great colleges. What about the average student at Allderdice who isn't in an honors program what college do they go to? I went to one of the top public high schools in the area, and our top student went to Harvard. A friend of mine's son was the top student in his high school (just an average public school in the area) and he went to W and J. So, I think education, like baseball, is judged by results.
You really do look at wins when determining the success of a manager. Why do last place teams fire their manager more often than first place teams?
I understand your point that the city schools generally have a harder job in comparison to affluent suburban districts. But as a parent, my main goal is to get my child the best education possible and to get them in to the best college possible. Now, I realize that Allderdice is unique in that they have some very competitive honors programs and that the graduates of these programs go to some great colleges. What about the average student at Allderdice who isn't in an honors program what college do they go to? I went to one of the top public high schools in the area, and our top student went to Harvard. A friend of mine's son was the top student in his high school (just an average public school in the area) and he went to W and J. So, I think education, like baseball, is judged by results.
So you're saying that if Joe Girardi was somehow hired by the Pirates in the offseason they'd start winning championships again?? Wow.
The problem with your analogy is that your friend's son wouldn't have been the top student at your school. Unless you can successfully show that those two top students had similar prospects before they entered high school, that story doesn't tell us anything about the quality of the education they received. There's a huge self-selection story there.
You really do look at wins when determining the success of a manager. Why do last place teams fire their manager more often than first place teams?
I'm not saying you shouldn't look at wins, or actually test scores, at all. I'm saying you should evaluate them in light of these other factors. Otherwise I don't want to get caught up in the details of the analogy, since they aren't actually relevant.
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I understand your point that the city schools generally have a harder job in comparison to affluent suburban districts. But as a parent, my main goal is to get my child the best education possible and to get them in to the best college possible.
As an aside, I do think you need to balance these school issues against other issues relevant to the health and well-being of children. But in any event, what I am suggesting is that in order to evaluate how much a given school is adding to your child's education, college prospects, and so on, you need to make sure that you aren't giving the schools you are looking at credit for things that don't actually depend on the school.
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Now, I realize that Allderdice is unique in that they have some very competitive honors programs and that the graduates of these programs go to some great colleges. What about the average student at Allderdice who isn't in an honors program what college do they go to?
I agree there may be different implications depending on how you think your individual child is going to do (although I do think absent evidence to the contrary, well-educated, well-motivated parents with normal, healthy, happy children should expect the odds are in favor of them doing pretty well in terms of things like test scores). But keep in mind that the average student at Allderdice (in terms of test scores) may be a well-below-average student in a high school which has substantially higher average test scores. So the question you should probably be asking is how does the average student at Allderdice--with presumably well-motivated parents, since we are having this conversation--do compared to the well-below-average student at this other high school?
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I went to one of the top public high schools in the area, and our top student went to Harvard. A friend of mine's son was the top student in his high school (just an average public school in the area) and he went to W and J. So, I think education, like baseball, is judged by results.
To evaluate this situation we would need to know a lot more. For example, what were the entrance exam strategies and scores of these two families? College entrance exams notoriously have very little to do with the schools you attend: if you have the right sort of parents and they pay for the right sort of prep, you will tend to do much better.
Plus, you again need to be careful with your hypothetical assumptions. The person at the top of their class in one high school might have ended up ranked much lower in another high school with a much more competitive student body. So you can't assume that if they switched schools, they would have gotten the exact same relative ranking and done better in college admissions as a result. The same is true in reverse: there may be people who ended up lower-ranked at the more competitive school who could have ended up higher-ranked at a less competitive school. That may have changed their prospects for the better.
Generally, I think you will find that students that get excellent HS grades, and also get excellent test scores, and also have parents who understand how to navigate the college admissions process, don't have much problem getting into elite colleges, regardless of where they go to school. And again, my point is that you want to avoid giving schools credit for something that really doesn't depend on them, particularly if placing your children into a particular school would require sacrifices in other areas, of their lives and perhaps your own.
My DH and I would love to move our family to the Pittsburgh area. He has to find a job first, unfortunately. There is actually a position open in his field, to which he has sent his resume today. We currently live in DE and hate it here, it is SO boring!!!! There is nothing to do, literally.
So we are looking for a suburb close to Pitt that has a lot to offer. Good shopping and lots to do. By lots to do, I mean good parks, a good library with an active children's section, a parks and rec department that offers fun things to do, kid things to do (Gymboree, etc). Basically, a kid-friendly town. I am not opposed to driving for things to do, either.
We have 1 year old twins and one on the way in a couple months.
The suburb also has to be affordable and have good schools.
Well, I hope this makes sense, thank you in advance for your guidance!
Katie
As soon as I read your desires, I immediately thought of Mt. Lebanon.
By the way, I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to say that many of the well-regarded schools in the area are not in fact performing relatively well, even after adjustment. In fact many of the traditionally-recommended school districts are also quite high on the Business Times' "overachiever" list.
My point is more that I think parents should be cautious about dismissing possible locations just because the relevant test scores are not among the very highest. If that procedure had no other implications that would be one thing, but sometimes ruling out certain locations necessitates other sacrifices (longer commutes for the parents, a lot more time in cars and more limited opportunities for autonomy for the children, or just generally a less desirable lifestyle, and so on). So my point is that you should be cautious about making such sacrifices without thinking through all these issues.
Generally, I think you will find that students that get excellent HS grades, and also get excellent test scores, and also have parents who understand how to navigate the college admissions process, don't have much problem getting into elite colleges, regardless of where they go to school. And again, my point is that you want to avoid giving schools credit for something that really doesn't depend on them, particularly if placing your children into a particular school would require sacrifices in other areas, of their lives and perhaps your own.
I disagree, I don't think a straight A student at a lesser high school gets in to Harvard, as an example of an elite school, whereas a straight A student at top high school does. The reputation of your high school does matter in the college admission process. This was the point I was trying to make earlier.
I disagree, I don't think a straight A student at a lesser high school gets in to Harvard, as an example of an elite school, whereas a straight A student at top high school does. The reputation of your high school does matter in the college admission process. This was the point I was trying to make earlier.
In this case it's the two students that aren't equal. The straight A student at a lesser high school would not be a straight A student at a top high school. And if he would be, then I think that student gets into Harvard either way. (In fact it might be more impressive to admission boards, to rise above everyone around you). Harvard probably isn't even a good example, it's too exclusive and thus looks at a lot more factors than class rank and GPA. You have to have letters or recommendation, extacurricular activities, community service, the ACT/SAT and even some SAT II tests, too.
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