Pittsburgh the Next "Oasis" for BosWash Refugees? (Allentown: neighborhood, universities)

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by pburghfan

I lived in Baltimore for 2 years and occasionally had to drive to NoVA. The traffic is the worst I have ever seen and yes, the speed traps are prevalent. I accumulated so many points I had to go to traffic school.

I got my only speeding ticket of my entire life on the Dulles Trap Road. (I mean Dulles Toll Road.)

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by jay5835

Oh, how I wish there were a really good Italian restaurant in Bloomfield, one that does pasta as well as Piccolo Forno in L'ville. There are two good places to get burgers, at least (Tessaro's and Lot 17). Their cooks actually get the distinction between "rare" and "raw," something you can't count on these days.

I wish tessaro's had a fryer. I would love some onion straws on my burger or some fries on the side. If I am going to eat a burger, I want to really go out being a hog

Have you tried BRGR yet? Menu looks good. Some good topping options and a decent selections of micros to drink.

[Aqua Teen Carl]

Just wanted to chime in here regarding the salary debate. Myself and my peers have all experience the same when it comes to salary in Pittsburgh. If you're looking for a white collar job here, the best thing to do is to look at the typical national salary and subtract $15,000 from that to get a rough estimate of what you'll be getting here. Lately I've been looking for a job for around $50k, and the national salary for that job is $65. Lots of places have wanted to negotiate for a lower salary than $50.

Same thing for my girlfriend in a completely different field (I'm in IT). She get's $30k for her job when the lowest national average is $50k (she does some specialized accounting that pays top dollar all over the world). That seems to be the norm here and that's why a lot of companies are headquartered around this area. Another factor to consider is that UPMC is the areas largest employer and they're known for low salaries.

True, you are going to get a lower cost of living here and that will certainly play into how much you're going to get paid, especially if you're younger.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I wish tessaro's had a fryer. I would love some onion straws on my burger or some fries on the side. If I am going to eat a burger, I want to really go out being a hog

Have you tried BRGR yet? Menu looks good. Some good topping options and a decent selections of micros to drink.

I've never heard of BRGR. I'll check it out.

This is their website, which says "spoonpgh.com". Same owners, I guess. Fresh, local, modern american cuisine in Pittsburgh East End. SPOON: eat, drink, lounge. (http://www.spoonpgh.com/lounge.php - broken link)

My favorite decent cheap burger is at 5 Guys on S. Bouquet St. next to the Towers at Pitt (coincidentally a NOVA chain): http://fiveguys.com/home.aspx.

[normie]

Originally Posted by airwave09

Are you sure about that? Do you have any links to back that up?

Here are the stats from the Bureau of Labor:

Unemployment Rates for Metropolitan Areas

Pittsburgh is at 7.4%, which is not at all bad when you consider what some other cities are facing. Still, it's not 5.9, which is where DC, Virginia, and MD are at. Whether or not this actually means much is up to debate, but since you asked for the stats, here they are.

The bottom line is, if any company has a huge number of job openings the first in line are the unemployed people who are already in Pittsburgh. If these jobs require skills that the unemployed dont have, then you will see companies actively recruiting employees from the NE corridor. That's what you would need to have to see a "huge influx" of people from that area. You might get a small but steady influx, balanced by the stream of people making the reverse move--and that's what most people on this thread seem to want, anyway, so it's great news for Pittsburgh.

FWIW, I regularly try to convince people who come to the Nova forum to move to Pittsburgh, especially when they mention a love for older architecture. TigerBeer is a recent example. I've told him a few times now that he should consider Pittsburgh (to the point where I worry he might take it personally--we like you TB, we just try to encourage people to move somewhere other than Nova whenever we can. There are just so many people moving in right now.). He had the same response we've heard over and over. He likes Pittsburgh, but in his field the jobs are in DC. I hear it again and again. If you really want a huge influx, you're welcome to it. To be honest I think you're better off without it. I'm thrilled to hear there are some fields where there's a lot of job growth in Pittsburgh, but so far the people I've met through the Nova forum all say the jobs they want are mostly in the DC area right now.

At any rate, this is not in any way a comment on the quality of life in Pittsburgh. I was simply answering the question of whether you'll have a "huge influx" of people moving there from the NE Corridor. IMO, I doubt it. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Pittsburgh. I think Pittsburgh's a great place.

[BrianTH]

Lots of topics to cover:

(1) As others have noted, the job mix in Pittsburgh has moved WAY upscale since the steel bust. As we have documented elsewhere, the young adult population in particular is highly educated (right up there with the DC Metro, in fact), and unlike some places they usually aren't working as bartenders (unless they want to);

(2) You can get detailed compensation data from the BLS here:

NCS Published Areas

As a rough rule of thumb, I think those in more upscale professions tend to make around 20% less than in DC. But it really varies by profession.

(3) Housing is in fact by far the largest source of difference in COL between Pittsburgh and the East Coast, although some other things can contribute as well (for example, the better private schools tend to be much more expensive on the East Coast). I don't think the housing difference is as dependent on condition as some people assert: I did lots of apples to apples comparisons back when we were thinking of living either in Pittsburgh or DC, and the difference really is huge.

That said, I agree it is possible to sacrifice significantly on housing in terms of location, size, and so on, sacrifice in some other areas as well, and balance your budget with the higher salary. But savings might be another matter, and once you get a little older and start expecting to move up in the world, in can get to be a drag.

That is part of why I think it is likely this would operate at a lag--only in the most recent years have we gotten to the point where there is a generation of younger adults on the East Coast who are getting to the stage of life where making a lot of sacrifices and not saving much is no longer very attractive. And if housing prices don't come down, and they don't relocate, they are going to end up with a lower quality of life than the generation before them. That is what I think is ultimately an unsustainable situation.

[BrianTH]

normie,

As an aside, I appreciate your well-reasoned, and reasonable, contributions to this discussion.

Anyway: I agree that employers aren't going to be pulling as much from lower unemployment areas like DC in the near future. Still, a lot of the East Coast has considerably higher unemployment than Pittsburgh.

I'm also mostly thinking past the current recession, and thinking in terms of what employers might start doing when making future site selections. Assuming we get back to somewhat normal labor market conditions, employers will have to be concerned about their ability to get quality employees for new sites. The Pittsburgh region is generating a good number of quality workers from local universities and such, so that is one possible source. But if it turns out that a decent number of people would be willing to relocate to Pittsburgh if there was a job opening for them (maybe a transfer, maybe a nationally-marketed position, or so on), then that will allow more employers to consider selecting Pittsburgh as a site.

In that sense, if there is potential demand to live in a place and the only thing holding it back is a lack of job openings, well, then employers can respond by locating more jobs in that place. Of course there are many, many other site-selection factors a given employer must consider, and the number of new sites even potentially in play over a given time period is also a limiting factor. Still, my point is that a job shortage in a given location at a given point of time is likely to be remedied eventually, even if it takes a while, barring some unusual barrier to employers locating there.

[Tiger Beer]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

There's plenty of people renting rooms or sharing efficiencies in DC and storing their money away or sending it overseas to their family.. for them, the COL difference isn't as big of an impact since they are minimizing their housing cost.

I did this in NYC, and did save money. But I was a single guy at the time. Not so easy to do with a family.

I would take an entire house in Pittsburgh over large roommate shares with 3 other people like I had to do in NYC/SF everytime.

Originally Posted by normie

FWIW, I regularly try to convince people who come to the Nova forum to move to Pittsburgh, especially when they mention a love for older architecture. TigerBeer is a recent example. I've told him a few times now that he should consider Pittsburgh (to the point where I worry he might take it personally--we like you TB, we just try to encourage people to move somewhere other than Nova whenever we can. There are just so many people moving in right now.). He had the same response we've heard over and over. He likes Pittsburgh, but in his field the jobs are in DC. I hear it again and again.

Hmm....

Well, where to begin.

Actually I have ALWAYS liked Pittsburgh...If you look at my profile, I have my highest POST COUNT on the Pittsburgh forum. So, if I had Pittsburgh-leanings showing through on the NOVA forum, it is because I have always had Pittsburgh leanings. (I just don't talk about it unless Pittsburgh is mentioned on other forums). I have even posted my own Pittsburgh photos that I've taken in the photo thread from well before you got familiar with me on the DC/NOVA forum

Basically, if I were RestonRunner with Accounting, it's an easy choice, I would do Pittsburgh as well. Actually if I had ANY job that was like that - where it doesn't matter what city you are in, I would choose Pittsburgh. However, I have also lived in NYC/SF, so I've already done my 'coolest city' thing. I'm really into practicality, and Pittsburgh fits that perfectly. DC also makes sense to me for unrelated reasons - entirely work-world related.

DC, for me, is the government-related types of jobs, and NGO's and such. Yeah, two MA's here, and one is government-related. So, I have a specific reason I am interested in DC well beyond just housing.

In short, Pittsburgh has always been on my horizons, and anything anyone might have said on NOVA, wasn't them saying it, but something I've always said and have a large post count to back it up I'm familiar with all the posters on the Pittsburgh forum, and I really find myself agreeing with most things here... I'm also a Michigan Midwesterner in origin, so Pittsburgh appeals on a lot of levels.

I also follow the Michigan/Detroit forums, and I feel MUCH more at home among posters in Pittsburgh with similar thinking/feelings/outlook, than I do in MI even. But the core values of Pittsburgh seem to reflect my exact upbringing that I acquired growing up in MI, if that makes sense.

[normie]

Who knows, TB, maybe a perfect job opening for you might come along. Pittsburgh does sound like the right fit for you.

Brian, you made several interesting points. I enjoy your posts and have for a few years. I hope things work out as you predict, that would be a happy turn of events for us as well as you. It benefits everyone to have cities like Pittsburgh and Cleveland reinvent themselves and revitalize.

Be careful about wishing for things like a huge influx of people from cities where the COL is already high. It does not work out the way you might think, and it would probably run up the COL and traffic congestion in Pittsburgh. Pitt is charming the way it is, why ruin it?

[BrianTH]

Oh, I would definitely prefer slow growth. I'm just speculating about how it could end up being a bit faster--but I'd also still bet on no more than moderate growth.