What attitudes are more prevalent among people who lived here pre-steel-bust? (Pittsburgh: mortgage, house)

[Denton56]

Originally Posted by RestonRunner86

As a former Federal employee within the Department of Defense may I inquire as to why you haven't put YOUR degree to use by applying for one of these so-called "cushy" positions? This "one guy" you know who "sleeps much of the day" is certainly NOT representative of most of my former colleagues. Didn't you chastise me in another thread for my "sweeping generalizations" about older people in Pittsburgh and their resistance to social progression or technological advancements? Pot, meet kettle?

HUH??? What in my post says anything about older people?

Why would I apply for a job that I don't need and don't want?

Sorry, but your post is confusing, not sure what you're saying.

[Denton56]

Originally Posted by Tallysmom

The vast majority of them also had PENSIONS.... so Social Security and their pension was enough.

I still am a strong supporter of unions. I'm seeing it out here, with unemployment very high and things are just awful.... employers feel completely free to stick it to the employees. They have downsized to where one person is doing the work of several, and then expect the employee to suck it up so they can keep their job.

In contrast, the business is making money hand over fist, and they are sitting on a pile of cash, and the CEO is getting paid MILLIONS... and the little guy has to suck it up.

Unions aren't perfect, but they do help to keep the employer honest. Have they put industries out of business? Yeah. Sometimes. But in steel's case, they only help nail shut the coffin... the lid was pretty well on there.

They sit on piles of cash? They don't invest their money in businesses that might give people jobs? Where do they put their money? In their mattresses? Or in banks and stocks that lend the money to companies that create jobs?

A hundred years ago, unions were very much needed. Now, they've become so greedy that they've destroyed entire companies, sent them all overseas. Very sad.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by RestonRunner86

Didn't you chastise me in another thread for my "sweeping generalizations" about older people in Pittsburgh and their resistance to social progression or technological advancements?

No. That was me. You've made ageist comments on a number of occasions (RR v. the Baby Boomers posts), and you generalize (sweepingly) fairly often (again, off the top of my head, RR v. the Big Bad Baby Boomers), creating little scenarios in which there are good guys (you and those you deem to be like you at any particular moment) and bad guys (anyone who doesn't agree with you). Things are very black and white with you, with not many gray areas. "Heroes and Villains," by people who are even older than I am, could be your theme song, it has seemed to me at times.

I don't think of myself as "resistan(t) to social progression" at all. Maybe I'm not up on the latest techno-everything, but that may be more of a $$$ issue than that of my being tired, old, or decrepit (or whatever you think of me).

But it's okay. I was somewhat like that when I was your age.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by Denton56

They sit on piles of cash? They don't invest their money in businesses that might give people jobs? Where do they put their money? In their mattresses? Or in banks and stocks that lend the money to companies that create jobs?

A hundred years ago, unions were very much needed. Now, they've become so greedy that they've destroyed entire companies, sent them all overseas. Very sad.

Excuse me -- pronoun trouble -- the "they" I was referring to are businesses. Not unions. Businesses are flush with cash they aren't using. I've heard this time and time again on the business channels I watch.

And as for moving jobs overseas yes -- blame unions if you want, but, trust me, when we start thinking working for 3 cents a day to be a good wage, and polluting everything around us is perfectly acceptable as long as I get my 3 cents a day..... watch the companies come flooding back! Does that seem fair to you?

[Tiger Beer]

Originally Posted by Tallysmom

And as for moving jobs overseas yes -- blame unions if you want, but, trust me, when we start thinking working for 3 cents a day to be a good wage, and polluting everything around us is perfectly acceptable as long as I get my 3 cents a day.....

That does sum up the problem right there.

Even if we had NO unions whatsoever anywhere in the U.S., we would never be able to compete on that kind of level.

It basically comes down to 'are you as an American willing to work for less money than a person gets paid in China or Indonesia' to work in a factory.

We could make an argument that unions are setting our prices higher than a person is offered for the same job in China or Indonesia. But the reality is on a completely different sphere well beyond unions.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Denton56

It's also a generational thing. The older generation was not used to expecting the government to take care of them. They knew that they had to take care of themselves so they did, and they saved money for a rainy day.

They don't seem to have a problem with Social Security and Medicare.

I don't think it is a political/government thing. I think it is more that their personal goals are not so focused on conspicuous consumption.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Denton56

It's better than a pension because the money belongs to the employee, not the company or the government. It can't disappear even if the company goes out of business because it's your money.

They are also worse than pensions because they don't allow for the pooling of risk, such as longevity risk, market risk, and so on. The result is that you really need to save a lot more in a 401K than people typically assume in order to provide for a retirement, and so lots of people are going to enter retirement underfunded.

Fortunately it is possible to both take the funds out of the employer's hands and also pool risk. But 401Ks are not such a way.

And yes, Obamacare will make it impossible for companies to afford to provide health insurance. We'll all be on crappy, government, health care insurance. (I am assuming you mean health insurance and not health care since few companies have doctors on staff that provide health care.)

Of course none of that is true. There is no government insurance in "Obamacare", not even as an option. Rather, those without employer-arranged insurance will have a choice of insurance plans offered by private companies through exchanges.

"Obamacare" also doesn't prohibit employers from arranging insurance, or otherwise make it impossible. But I do think you will see more and more employees clamoring to get into the exchanges instead, because they will likely offer better plans than most employers.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

They don't seem to have a problem with Social Security and Medicare.

I don't think it is a political/government thing. I think it is more that their personal goals are not so focused on conspicuous consumption.

Thanks for steering us back to the topic of what has changed since the Steel Bust. The point of this thread is to get a historic perspective of a major cultural shift. I want to understand why there is such a difference between two generations and what those differences are. Maybe we can start another thread to debate unions, obamacare, or other current political issues.

What about changes in leisure time activities. I know in Buffalo, the older generation seemed to spend a lot of time "at the lodge" with friends they had known for 30 years. Kiwanis, Rotary, Moose etc. were hubs of activity. There also seemed to be plenty of time to play cards. Poker games, bridge, etc. were weekly events. Much less money was spent going out. I think meet-up groups wouldn't have done well back then because most people didn't need to go to something like that to meet friends They were probably less likely to attend a meeting of strangers. Any thoughts on this?

[gg]

Originally Posted by Caladium

Thanks for steering us back to the topic of what has changed since the Steel Bust. The point of this thread is to get a historic perspective in order to understand why there is such a difference between two generations and what those differences are. Maybe we can start another thread to debate unions, obamacare, or other current political issues.

I don't think you can just blanket two generations like you may think you can. We don't have the money like we did back then. We are not second to NYNY in corporate headquarters like back in the 70's, but the place is nicer for the most part. I am sure there are a few old timers that feel it was better back then, but to be honest, I think most are much happier with Pittsburgh today.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

I don't think you can just blanket two generations like you may think you can.

Now THIS is the sort of thing I was hoping we could discuss. Rep points for you and you may be right. I have the perception that there was a huge shift between the generations as a result of the Steel Bust and the city needing to re-invent itself. But I'm an outsider and that's why I started this thread--perceptions can be wrong and I want to know what you guys think. Is this how people who live in Pittsburgh see it?

ps I also think lots of people are happier with Pittsburgh today. It's more balanced and more interesting, IMO. Of course, I'm part of the post-bust generation.